Speed of the electrons

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by c'est moi, Jan 29, 2002.

  1. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    It makes a huge difference. It actually costed me a job working on televisions. I went to radar school, where electrons flow from power to ground, and televisions work by electrons flowing from ground to power. The circuitry is completely backwards, and different electronic schools teach the different types of cicuitry. Radars can not function this way because they actually have to send out the electrons in order for them to be reflected back into the dish. In a television it doesn't really matter as much. A TV will have hot grounds so that it can feed electrons to power, but a radar does not have any hot grounds. So I did not know about them, and it was hard trying to work out the circuitry in reverse. I would have to start from ground to figure the electron flow because all the ciruitry is completely backwards. This is because I came from the negative universe where electrons are negative and flow from power to ground. All of the cicuitry from each "universe" is completely backwards from the other.
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  3. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Pretty easy to see why you couldn't figure it out - someone who uses "costed" as a word...
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  5. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Nonsense, they don't even use that word in electronics, and it is okay because I am pretty close to Texas. So everyone else does it too, ye ha!

    It was actually that and I said that there was a faulty transformer, I knew that they are not supposed to go bad but it had a fuse intergrated into it. Would be a smart thing to do if no one ever replaced them. It was one of those TV's that my boss couldn't figure out what was wrong with it, go figure.
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  7. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    BTW, the electrons sent out of a radar that reflect off of objects then make a ping almost instantly on the display. This is from them traveling through air...
  8. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    You just continue to dig yourself into a ever deeper hole. Radar does not "send out electrons", it emits EM waves. Apparently you don't know a great deal about electricity nor electronics. (Or even the basics.)
  9. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Particle wave duelity ring any bells? You cannot have EM waves without electrons. You can't seperate the two.
  10. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Based on that statement AND a great deal of your posting history here, you've once again exposed your ignorance of even simple basic science and physics. <shrug>

    (And your spelling ability is also dismal. Are you also so lazy that you can't use an ordinary spell-checker?)
  11. leopold Valued Senior Member

    hmmm . . .
    i'm amazed you even made this post.
    i know of NO ONE with electronics training that will say electrons flow from the plate to the cathode.
    as far as i know every radar installation uses some type of microwave tube, which has a plate and a cathode.
    whether you know it or not TV and radar is basically the same technology, it's just applied differently.

    electrons MUST flow from negative to positive, what other reason would there be to heat the cathode?
  12. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    I think you have just shown that to everyone that would read this. And no I will not use a spell checker because I can't stand something changing the way I write stuff, sometimes my sentences are too complex and then it creates more errors than what I would have had to begin with. I can't stand them, and sometimes I feel that this web site changes things I type without me even doing it. Then it can be hard to edit because sometime when you edit it shows parts of the same sentence being there twice.

    There is no way you or anyone is going to convince me that you can have EM waves without electrons. And I don't think I am going to be able to convince you of it either, because people have started to just pick on me because they don't like me. If you all where not such arrogent prudes I would be nicer to people. Just because you all want to be a bunch of jerks doesn't mean everything I say is wrong. So I would suggest asking someone else about this before you end up making a total fool of yourself.
  13. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Both schools assume that negative is the electrons traveling from power to ground, but with all the circuitry being completely backwards in one school and the other then it cannot be true in both schools. I think the school I went to actually was correct in saying this because it does not have any need for hot grounds. A hot ground would prove that there is a difference in potential between the hot ground and ground. The school I went to would have a ground that is at a level, but that level was used differently than a hot ground. It did not provide power, it was just to take a difference of the voltage level.

    They are not basically the same technology, they are completely opposite. Old TV's used cathod ray tubes, but a radar just uses an antennna that is put into a waveguide that is then sent out of a dish. The only thing the same about them is that the display of the radar uses a cathod tube. The advice I would give anyone going from one school to the other or trying to figure out the other circuitry that was not from their school would then be to assume that the electron flow was from ground to power. It then works out as a troubleshooting method, and helps to figure out how these circuits operate without knowing them. I say this because I have experience with both types of electronics and it works.
  14. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    You mean the speed of an electron as it passes between air molecules? Is that any different than its speed in a vacuum? What do you think its speed is upon collision with, say, a molecule of N[sub]2[/sub] coming at it head on? (Assume any air temperature you like). So far this is ignoring electromagnetics. To get closer to an answer, you would seem to need to need to know the mechanism that propelled the electron through the air in the first place, and try to figure out what forces, if any, are still acting on it as it hurtles toward an eventual collision.

    In other words, you could probably get a lot of takers, if you could first explain what you mean by "the velocity of an electron in air".

    What do you mean "speed of a spark"? You mean the speed of the light radiating from a spark? It that any different than the speed of light through air from a sunbeam, or from the reflection Narcissus admires as he leans to drink from a pool of water?

    Have faith. People can do a lot of things. And a lot of people can even do them pretty well. Once in a while quite a few people can even get the facts straight.

    You mean you never heard of Maxwell's equations? That would certainly be a logical place to start if you're talking about an electron in motion.

    Quoth the klaxon: BZZZZZZ!!!!. You would have to know a little mathematics first in order to know which math applies to which scenario. Or, you can take the stance of the crowd that is milling around the boy (gazing at his reflection) shaking their heads. Those who know no mathematics simply leave the analysis to the students, scholars and professionals who bothered to actually study it.

    Fields propagate at the maximum (c) in a vacuum. Are you saying that circuitry increases the propagation velocity of fields? Are circuits like a vacuum? Vacuum tubes? Do you suppose vacuum tubes are "faster" than, say, the gates in the CPU you're currently using?

    So far I haven't heard you define what theory you're referring to, or what was made up, what's pinned down and who's on first.

    I suppose you could reach any conclusion you like if you have no premise, no evidence, and no math to try to prove anything. It certainly would be hard to argue against the mathematics of moving electrons if you never even referred to Maxwell's Equations or any of the many other mathematical principles that follow from Maxwell's Equations.

    Another free conclusion that arises from the lack of a premise and no math or science to shore it up.

    You mean capacitors have nothing to do with fields? Fields don't propagate at the speed of light (or close to it)? What happens inside a capacitor? And what about the dielectric effect?

    What math? Got any? (Hint: try F = qV x B.)

    Velocity of what? An electron in air? A field in air? Or is this just another freebie in which anything's possible when no premise or factual basis had been established and no laws in particular apply to anything because we really aren't talking about anything in particular?

    ("Between" needs two nouns to get between. Field is one.) If you have a new lightning theory, there's a related thread for you to sling hash at.

    How do the electrons equalize?

    That's odd, I clearly remember seeing the light of stars much much older. So what gives?
  15. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    It would have to be pretty fast, when a radar could send out EM waves that reflect or interact with an object and then come back with information that tells the display to blip almost instantly! The vast blue yonder can be very big in size, so the equation for this velocity could never apply to this situation. There is no circumfrance of a "wire" it is just electrons moving to an object and telling the receiver it has been reflected at this distance.

    How long it takes the flash to reach one point to another. The energized particles of the air would be an indicator as to how fast electrons are traveling. The abbundance of electrons that would energize the air would have to be present in order to create a spark.

    I think it would be a complete waste of time, if someone actually did try to incorperate this theory into electronics they would inevitably end up in the same position that I am in now.

    I never heard of them being used in any type of electronic theory.

    Then maybe you would like to be the one to discover how these equations can then be incorperated into electronics.

    Like I mentioned the other day in another thread related to this one, the electric field is NOT designed into circuitry so that it operates at a faster speed. Funny how the word NOT seems to come up missing in a lot of my post. I was saying nothing of the sort.

    Basically just the same thing I just said that came up to have the word NOT missing out of it.

    My evidence is that a voltage level can change almost instantly. The square wave. The line would have to have enough electrons to create 5 volts and then all of these electrons would have to be removed in order to have 0 volts.

    That is because then it would be an experiment. To prove wrong the theory that I mentioned before that was missing the word NOT.

    Capacitors create a field from the difference of potential between two plates. The current is not allowed to flow between these plates so then it creates a field in between them. So then they are an open to DC, and short to AC. The change in potential on one side then can effect the other side via this field.

    The guy that got fired before me at the repair shop I mentioned was fired because he took to long doing the math trying to troubleshoot circuits. It is not required to do electron flow theory to troubleshoot electronics. And engineers that know the math are not really welcome into the field.

    The mathmatics that you proclaim is so correct says that the velocity of electrons through air is much slower than metals. You should know this right? Since you are so sure of it being so correct and you know everything about it...

    This is very basic science taught in grade school. It is the reason why it is said that lightning never strikes the same place twice. The area it stuck would then no longer have this capacitive charge. All of the voltage would be sent to ground, so there is no imbalance of this field in that area to allow it to strike there again.

    When the volage is the same, and there is no difference in voltage between them. Put a multimeter at both points and then it says the voltage is zero.

    It travels at the speed of light...
  16. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Nope, you are the one making a complete fool of yourself. For MANY reason in this thread alone. For one, YOU think radar puts out a stream of electrons - that's pure hogwash. For another, you don't seen to understand that electrons *always* flow from a negative source to a positive drain. There are others also but I'm not going to bother listing them - they are all more than obvious to the people here with REAL knowledge.

    Final word: people are not picking on you because they don't like you - it's just because you are a very foolish individual since you attempt to talk about things of which you know so little.
  17. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Never heard that one before, did you make it up yourself? Just because the power is marked as being negative does not mean that is the side that actually has the electrons. In some electronics it is assigned to the positive end, it is just placed as the power source not because it is actually negative. That is why it is a good idea to be careful when joining two different types of electronics, because you can then short it out putting negative to negative and positve to positive with jumper cables or something of the like. The reason why you don't know this is because you know so little about electronics!
  18. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    You've finally gone over the top. People will now remember you forever as the guy who didn't even know that electrons carry negative charges and therefore originate from negatively charged sources!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You might as well leave here now because you have absolutely NO credibility left! (What a looser!)
  19. leopold Valued Senior Member

    radar requires at least 2 components.
    the pulse it sends out and a counter, and they must be synchronized with one another.
    the pulse does nothing except to travel to the object and back.
    a third component, called markers, would aid in determining distance.
    of course EM fields aren't designed into circuitry because they are a primary source of noise.
    the exact opposite is true, great pains are sometimes taken to keep EM fields from interfering with circuit operation.
  20. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    YOUR FIRED!!! Remember that when it happens! I don't think anyone knows the speed of electrons and how that applies to electronic circuits! It is not science, and it doesn't apply to anything of the fuction of electronic circuits. Just try to keep from hooking stuff up with a car battery, they have been known to do this. You might be in for a shock! And you won't have time to react before it hits you, and it can increase the likely hood of having a heart attack even the next night, so you would then need to check into a hosipital for an EKG so you will not die.
  21. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member


    Unbelievable ignorance.

    Even for a crank.
  22. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Most of the electronics of a cathode tube are intergrated into the tube itself. They don't even include a lot of circuitry in it, in the tech manuals. If it breaks you just have to get an all new tube in it.

    The EM fields that interfere with signals that are caused by impeadence travel close to the speed of light. A signal that is shorted out can still maintain a voltage for a short time if there is an impedence mismatch. If there is no impedence mismatch then the voltage level can change in a signal wave almost instantly. So then this EM signal wave interfearence would have to be the speed of light or at least close to the speed of light, it would then have to be faster than a voltage change in order to maintain a voltage level during a short.
  23. leopold Valued Senior Member

    the only "electronics" incorporated into a radar crt is the electron gun and a focusing aperture.
    that's it.
    the video amplifier,timing circuits, pulse shapers, oscillators, counters, power supply, ALL of it is outside the crt.
    that's because there ISN'T any circuitry inside a radar crt.
    oops, my bad.
    grid and cathode.
    the focusing aperture is electrostatic in operation and requires a connection to high voltage.
    i'm not sure about the grid, it wouldn't be required but it would be useful.

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