Spanking your child?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by ElectricFetus, Jun 12, 2003.

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Is Spanking ok?

  1. Always

    14 vote(s)
    18.4%
  2. When all else fails

    30 vote(s)
    39.5%
  3. Never

    27 vote(s)
    35.5%
  4. It depends, will explain below in post...

    5 vote(s)
    6.6%
  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I have seen this with my own eyes fail (refer to references of Ryan). Some children do not care, they enjoy what they are doing and the consequences do not bother them. I do not believe you should not do that but some children will not listen, you must tell them what they are doing is wrong and why it is wrong, if they continue you must discipline them, failure to discipline will make the child believe s/he can do what ever they want despite the warnings of their parents, a lack of respect for the parents is generated and narcissistic personality develops as the child gets what every they want despite s/he parents attempts other wise.

    What a blatant Ad Hominem! How can you say I have never experienced positive reinforcement as a child? And how can you say I know nothing about it even if I have never experienced it, how does my understand of psychology and reading of my step-mothers how to raise a child books not validate that I at lest know what positive reinforcement is? Ad Hominem is a fallacy and a failure of proper argument construction on your part.

    This is a difference of opinion, can you bring up proof that spanking alone traumatizes children?

    This is a serious generalization fallacy on your part! How do you know that no children desire personal entertainment over attention? How can you blame this on the way the child was raise because if you do then you are debunking your own ideals on raising children since I have brought up a child raise thoroughly on such ideals and yet desiring personal entertainment over positive attention.

    Again you refuse to notice this is what psychology defines as positive reinforcement I have brought repeated proof on this yet you ignore it.
     
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  3. thed IT Gopher Registered Senior Member

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    The statements you make are not logically connected. A child will do something they know the parent does not like, purely to see what happens. More so than adults a child will push the envelope. This has nothing to do with what they generally want.

    If a child is largely ignored, when behaving properly, yet get's attention when behaving badly (even if it means getting hurt), many choose behaving badly. It then gets the attention of the parent. This is a well documented aspect of parenting.

    On a personal note, if I start playing with my kids when I walk in from work it is hard for them to stop. I'm not in the house 10-12 hours a day, they hardly see me except at weekends. Once they have my undivided attention they want more of it. In short, the kids are happiest when we are both sitting down and they are sitting on top of us.

    You can accuse me of the fallacy of overgeneralisation (I do know what that is) but until you have kids you really do not know the truth of what I said. Their center of life throughout years of developement is the parent. They can not feed themselves for 10+ years, can't even reach a water tap for the same time. We decide what they eat, wear, say, is proper, is wrong, is nice, is bad, correct ... the whole shooting match. Nothing happens unless we say it. Of course they rebel but they still rely on the parent to provide guidance or needs.

    As (Q) says, a child who requires entertainement above the love (which is what the above is) of their parents is probably beyond help.

    What I am saying is not meant as a slur on the parents of Ryan. Seems to me that kid has serious problems that needs addressing. Probably along the lines of serious ADHD or maybe an autistic spectrum disorder such as Aspergers'.
     
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  5. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Thed

    Once they have my undivided attention they want more of it. In short, the kids are happiest when we are both sitting down and they are sitting on top of us.

    And that is exactly what one must expect, encourage and dedicate themselves during those child-rearing years.

    You’ve achieved family perfection. Take a bow.
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    thed

    I will also accuse you of an ad hominem: just because I don't have children does not mean I do not know what I'm say, I do in fact have experience in talking care of children.

    On the issue of children in play, a child may do thing simply for fun, for example a child will jump on a bed for fun regardless of what attention it brings from parents, children will play do they not? I think your people are misinterpreting what I’m saying. If a parent tells them to stop and they want to do it anyways what authority does the parent have in making the child stop?

    Also Ryan is not Asperger’s nor mildly autistic he shows emotion well and does not get obsess about any one thing, has excellent motor skills. Also he’s able to pay attention and stay fix to one task long enough that he most likely does not qualify under ADHD. Ryan is simply spoiled and does not respect others, he does what ever he wants and dam if anyone should try or tell him to stop.
     
  8. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,125
    Ryan is simply spoiled and does not respect others

    It appears you've uncovered the problem. Spanking will only serve to increase his disrespect for others.

    And of course, children can't really spoil themselves.
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    No raising some children by your ideals spoils them.
     
  10. thed IT Gopher Registered Senior Member

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    1,105
    Hmm, I smell a troll here. So far you have accused me and (Q) of two logical fallacies simply for disagreeing with you. Just to remind you, Ad Hominen = attack the person not the argument. We are disagreeing with you and offering some personal perspectives. As you seem unable to remember further back than yesterday, I started out agreeing with you. Only when I took the opposing stance did you start accusing me of logical fallacies. Who is guilty of Ad Hominens then?

    But your grasp of English and logic seems incapable of understanding that.

    Every authority in the world. But that seems to be too subtle point for you.

    As I said to (Q) a while back, some kids are spoiled and behave atrociously. This is the fault of the parents and not the child.

    Spanking will not help in a case like this as it misses the underlying cause. The kid is not getting the attention they require from the parrents.
     
  11. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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  12. Bebelina Feminazi Messiah Valued Senior Member

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    4,997
    You tell him, Q!
     
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    18,140
    No thred you claim that just because I do not have children I can not understand, this is claiming the person is wrong because of a personal defect, thus a ad Hominem, note I did not quote your inter statement as a Ad Hominem.

    These being a being a Ad hominem no ifs,and or buts about it.

    And how does that parent have the authority? Explain why the child would listen? Explain why Ryan does not?

    I have to disagree: Ryan was given a lot of attention, my step mother would praise him for being good, play with him and always speak to him with control and loving attitude.
     
  14. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    Yes Q I do.

    1. Lowering the Childs self esteem is not as damaging as once believe as stated in scientific American in late 2001 (I can not remember the exact article but if you require I could pull it up) to much self esteem can lead to narcissism, a child should be raise between both extremes.

    2. I fail to see how spanking breeds hostility and anger, I don’t hit people nor am I angry has a psychotically study been done to prove that spanking causes the children to grow up into a hostile and angry adult. If not then this is just a assumption.

    3. Spnaking may not stop a undesirable behavior but the other methods have also failed, just because spanking is fallible does not mean that it is wrong.

    4. “Create additional problems.” Could they explain what those are?

    5. “Lead to child abuse.” Really do they have proof on this or is this another assumption? I could say lack of spanking leads to child abuse: when Ryan punched his baby sister my step mother lost control and hit Ryan very violently.

    6. “Lead to neurotic disorders.” Again do they have proof of this? You can’ believe something just because your agree with it they need to supply proof to their claims

    7. I won’t disagree with this one but so? What are the long term side effects? Does the child stop loving there parents or hurt there parents in revenge later in life? There emotions only seem temporary.

    8. “Teach that might makes right.” What??? I don’t even understand what this one means?

    9. “Block the learning process.” Lack of reference to proof and evidence.

    10. “Lead to fear and avoidance.” Really? Fear and avoidance of doing what ever they did wrong again or a general fear and avoidance?

    11. “Fail to teach appropriate behavior.” This is a repeat of #3 only rephrased.

    12. “Make a child hit back.” Actually the child learns not to hit back as the parents wrath would be inquired again. Non-spanking parenting seems the lead to children that hit, again refer to Ryan.

    13. “Hitting anyone other that a child is called "assault and battery" and is punishable by law.” And there point is? This is very much out of the issue of spanking a child.

    14. “Weaken the relationship between the hitter and the one who is hit.” Again do they have proof on this? I love my parent dearly many others that have been spanked will probably say the same. I see my parents as my guides and guardians in life, would I if I did not respect them?

    15. “Block communication.” Very vague and does not have any proof or evidence.

    16. “Have to become more severe as the child gets older.” Quite the opposite I did not need to be spanked in my teen or even above 11, I did chores for my wrongs and them seem totally effective.

    17. “Give the child a model for aggression and violence.” Yes it does it teaches the child how to raise its children, this model though does not easily apply to how to treating other adults or children.

    18. “Not stop when the lesson is learned but when the spanker is tired.” The dynamics of spanking is to spank the child when they did something wrong, when they repeat spank again, there is plenty of time for the parent the rest in between, so I don’t see how this happens.

    19. “Get misdirected at an innocent party.” What??? I don’t even understand what this one means?

    20. “Not promote inner control.” Quite the opposite the child learn to control him self because if s/he does not their parents will spank them.

    21. “Lead to parent abuse in the future when the roles have reversed and the parent is dependent on the child.” I Want to keep my parents him with me rather then a old folks home, this is so my mother and live out her last years doing what she loves most: demanding things of me. So I see this statement as totally false and again like most of the others lacks proof and is simply a fabrication.

    22. “Make the child dependent on external control for his behavior.” Not at all the fear become internal like a conscience “do this and you may get punished” leads to “don’t do this because it wrong” later in life.

    23. “Affect other observers in negative ways.” Yes it does but when does that have to affect how you discipline your children? Should your disciplining of your child be a fashion “See I don’t spank aren’t I cool?”?

    24. “Backfire on the parent - causing him to suffer emotionally or physically on account of his own behavior.” I find that very doubtfully my mother quite proud of it in fact.

    25. “Confuse the child because it is frequently followed by affection, favors or gifts. This teaches a scary message- that love involves hitting and hurting - a concept that is believed by wife beaters and all consenting victims of batterings.” Why didn’t I get any gifts?!?! I think this statement is critiquing a bad strategy to parenting rather then spanking its self, if this strategy is not used then it invalidates the statement.

    26. “Children who are not hit by their parents are more likely to find non-physical ways to settle their differences with siblings and friends.” Quite the opposite Ryan hits other child dispute the fact he was never hit (at that time). To much self esteem leads to bully like behavior and narcissism.

    27. “People who were not hit as children tend to feel proud of that fact and special on account of it.” Good for them, though I don’t think most adults give a dam.

    28. “When parents learn other successful techniques for discipline, and, as a result, usually like themselves better.” Oh very true, but if they have to they still have the right to spank, I do not advocate spanking a cure all I advocate it as valid if needed dependent on the child.

    29. “When parents learn other successful techniques for discipline, their relationship improves.” What with each other? Do they have proof on this?

    30. “If a child is usually hit for misbehaving, he may opt to take a spanking and risk getting caught - if his only reason for behaving is to escape punishment. We want to give our children reasons for behaving - not reasons for NOT misbehaving!” I do not disagree: tell the child ahead of time, make them think about it, but what happens when they don’t listen? What happens when the child does it anyways how do you stop them? What if time outs do not work or if the child does not listen to you in general?

    31. “Our goal for discipline should always be future oriented - helping the child to profit from his mistakes and not repeat behaviors that are dangerous or self-defeating.” My mothers personal quote: “I do not raise my children to love me, I raise them so they can become successful adults, their lives are more important to me then how they feel about me.”
     
  15. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    19,125
    From the answers you’ve given, it appears you and your family is caught in a cycle of violence and physical abuse as the preferred method of child rearing. What’s worse is that you consider this perfectly acceptable therefore; I can only conclude that you are hostile and angry. Although, that hostility and anger may be suppressed to a certain degree, the damage is evident.

    This statement alone speaks volumes:

    My mothers personal quote: “I do not raise my children to love me, I raise them so they can become successful adults, their lives are more important to me then how they feel about me.”

    Children’s lives ARE their parents and their parents’ love and attention – they don’t have anything else. If your mother chooses to take that away and replace it with physical abuse, then it is bound to fail miserably.

    And this gem:

    when Ryan punched his baby sister my step mother lost control and hit Ryan very violently.

    Your stepmother should be arrested immediately and kept away from children at all times.

    Ryan has serious problems and is most likely a perfect example of the cycle of abuse that exists in your family. Perhaps he is the only one in your family that understands.
     
  16. thed IT Gopher Registered Senior Member

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    1,105
    Colour me stupid, but I said you would not understand, not that you where wrong. There's a difference. I offered a personal opinion, one (Q) seems to understand, but you decided to attack me rather than take the statement at face value.

    Before I had kids several people told me basically the same thing - "you can't understand", I accepted their wisdom for what it was. My Brother In Law keeps telling me it only gets harder as they grow up. I bow to his wisdom as he has two teenagers. I don't get all huffy telling him he's accusing me of a 'personal defect'.

    :::: Edited to change phraseology ::::

    I used the words so that you understand the difference between a personal opinion and an attack on you personally. If I decided to use a true Ad Hominen the phrases "stupid, idiotic, moronic plebian with the IQ of an aardvark " would feature strongly. Or I would post, the URL http://www.mylilsite.net/youare.swf

    The Parent has the authority by virtue of being the Parent. How you choose to exercise that is the difference between a good and bad parent. Same for how you handle a child not listening.

    My eldest daughter is adept at not listening. But she also knows the consequences of her actions. It does not involve hurting her but she is miserable if she insists on continuing her cause of action. Amazingly, she is learning, albeit slowly.

    As to why Ryan is not responding to his carers, no idea. Without knowing the full details and the child in question, anything I say will be a wild generalisation. Seems to me he may have a strong presonality and is very active/intelligent. The trick of parenthood is working out a regime that works for all, compromise is a good word for me. This is not simple in practice and a lot of mistakes are made reaching that happy balance. I'd give it 20 years before all parties are happy. In my case, more like 40 years with my parents.

    Again, seems to me there are other issues. You have to find them and that is not always easy for all concerned.

    To again use an analogy, my eldest has again been sleeping badly recently. 3 nights she's been awake at 2am. She claims nothing is wrong. We know something is bothering her but she will not admit to it. Personally I am hurt that she does not trust me to talk to her but I also respect her personal space. I may also be very wrong. We'll see.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2003
  17. thed IT Gopher Registered Senior Member

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    1,105
    Unfortunately the pressures of modern life and running a household means this does not happen as often as the kids would like. If they had their way, we would never move from the couch, locked in an embrace. Bless 'em, with a mace.
     
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I am not hostile nor angry towards people, my mother is not hostile or angry towards me hasn't been in years. I don't see how any damage has been done. As I have mention before my mother does not preferred spanking she used it when all else fail my sister never been spank and may never be would that means she’s out of the cycle? I don't want nor plan of having children would that make me out of the cycle to?

    So if the child ends up as a serial kill but loves s/he parents it was all worth it?

    Obviously you did not read anything else I have said about my step mother, she does not believe in spanking she followed all those books and yet her child is spoiled. My step mother lost her nerve with Ryan because the books failed her. My step-mother hates my mother and step-father and their ideas on rising children just as much as you do, yet your ideals have failed her.
     
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    thed,

    Well saying I would not understand seems like a attack on my it invalidates what I have said so it is the same as calling me wrong.
    your phrases falls under the category of a Ad Hominem you do not need to insult someone directly that would be a Ad Hominem Abusive.

    Also thank for the personal information on your family but what do those examples have to do with the this argument on spanking?
     
  20. thed IT Gopher Registered Senior Member

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    1,105
    I'll go out on a limb here. You are quite welcome to tell me I am wrong, stupid, an idiot, or whatever comes to mind, call me a logical fallcay if that helps. I really do not care, this is only a medium for information exchange. As they say, it is only usenet.

    I think you know what the problem is and are looking for a logical, independant answer. Hence the (what I perceive as) angst in your posts. You see Ryan as a younger version of yourself and am trying to protect him from whatever happened to you. OK, shoot me if I am wrong, really.

    What troubles you?
     
  21. storni topological frog Registered Senior Member

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    This Be the Verse

    They fuck you up, your mom and dad.
    They may not mean to, but they do.
    They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.

    But they were fucked up in their turn
    By fools in old-style hats and coats,
    Who half the time were soppy-stern
    And half at one another's throats.

    Man hands on misery to man.
    It deepens like a coastal shelf.
    Get out as early as you can.
    And don't have any kids yourself.

    -Philip Larkin



    dont hit your kids

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  22. thed IT Gopher Registered Senior Member

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    1,105
    We seem to have sequed(sic) from the original thread, as usual. I offer these examples of where kids might be spanked by some but are not. My eldests recent behaviour probably would have resulted in a thwack 5 years ago, I was also not in total control of myself then. Hence my comment on her not confiding in me. The damage may have been done already.
     
  23. thed IT Gopher Registered Senior Member

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