Some facts about guns in the US

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by James R, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I have never seen a rational definition of assault weapon that matches that description. Indeed, oftentimes it is the OPPOSITE - there was an assault weapons ban a while back that defined "assault weapon" in part as a gun that could have a bayonet attached. Which, of course, is the opposite of a weapon that is designed for killing large numbers of people.
     
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  3. Ellis Registered Senior Member

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    105
    I'm Canadian and am the owner of several guns. I grew up on a farm and come from a long history of hunters. We own a hunting lodge in Northern Ontario. You need to take a course and are subject to background checks to get your Possession and Acquisition License (PAL). This allows you to own a long rifle (normal hunting/sporting rifles). There was also a national gun registry which required each gun to be recorded and that information was available to the police so they knew who owned what type of firearm and where it was kept. This registry has since been abolished due to the high cost and lack of people claiming ownership of long rifles which were owned prior to it's inception about 15 years ago. Handguns are available to be purchased but, require more licensing. I have a handgun license as well. It is essentially an amendment to your PAL which allows you to purchase "restricted weapons". It requires another course as well as a host of criminal/character checks for you to get it. If your ex-wife/neighbour/family member objects to you owning the restricted weapon, you are denied the permit. Then once you purchase a handgun, you are required to notify the police who then issue you a permit to take the weapon home and they stipulate the time and even the route you take. The gun must be kept with a trigger lock, in a permanently fixed locked safe with the ammunition stored separately. Now if you want to shoot it, you have to notify the police of the range you are member of and again the time and route is indicated on your permit to transport to that range. Also, there is an additional course you take for your hunting license and that is very strictly monitored. Each province has some slight variations on the transport permits but, they are all very similar.
     
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  5. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    @ Billvon,
    I would describe any weapon with a magazine attached as an assault weapon. Hunting is a sport and putting a bullet manually into the chamber should not restrict the sport too much. I have no idea who came up with the definition of "assault rifle" that you read about, but it should be based on ability to reload and refire quickly. No magazines should EVER be sold to the public.

    I was a Marksman with The 2nd Field Engineers Militia. I know how to convert a semi-automatic FNC1 to Fully Automatic by altering it with a simple matchhead. There is no need for a weapon with a magazine for hunting. The 303 came with a smaller magazine, but jammed so frequently it might as well have been a manually fed weapon.

    If someone were to invent a mechanism or foolproof trigger system that regulated time between shots ( 1 minute maybe ) for hunting it would likely satisfy many gun critics and sell well. If you cannot kill your Deer on the first shot then you lose. No need to fill it with 20 holes.

    The post above pretty much shows how hard Canadian weapons are to get. I have never seen a handgun in public that was not in a police holster.
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    How about this: "Any projectile weapon systems that has ammo stored in detectable magazines, with muzzle energies over 1000 joules and barrel lengths exceeding 25.4 cm or 10 inchs, are illegal for civilian purchase or ownership". That covers all these assault weapons without any of the ambiguity of what is an "assault weapons" of course it leaves out handguns, even the 50 cal Desert Eagle would not fall under this ban (barrel does not exceed 10 inchs, besides that very few people can fire a 2000 joule bullet without this guns flying back into their face! in fact any handgun over 1000 joules is painfully hard to control even the first shot) and most magnums are revolves.

    I don't see why hunters need semi-auto weapons, usually if the first shot missed the pray is already on the run before the gun has automatically chambered the second round. As is very few shotguns are automatic, and semi-autos can't beat the accuracy of bolt action and as such bolt actions are still common in hunting and gun sports.
     
  8. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    18,477
    *Double post, please delete* -- 16,000 post and just 9 days way from 10 years of membership, not bad.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    14,174
    Are revolvers assault weapons? Some will hold 10 rounds and of course can be reloaded in seconds with a speedloader, and most are effectively semiautomatics (one trigger pull = one shot.)
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,174
    So an Uzi submachine gun with a barrel that is .3" shorter would not be an assault weapon, but a Remington 700 deer rifle (detachable magazine) IS an assault weapon? The Uzi would be legal but the Remington wouldn't?

    (Not saying that's what you intended; just pointing out the difficulty of defining things like "assault weapons.")
     
  11. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,320
    The guns used in Connecticut was bought by his mom legally. He stole them and used them wrongly. The AR15 is semi auto not full auto. Semi Auto is used many times for hunting. It takes a human to kill the weapon don't do that by itself.

    The government may regulate spoons now instead of guns.
    It lead to many Americans to get fat including a "LARGE DONOR" of Obama, Oprah.
     
  12. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,088
    @ Billvon,

    My definition might not be popular with Americans in general, as I feel all handguns should be solely for law enforcement.

    I think it is common sense. Think common sense and you will see my opinion clearly. There is no reason anybody should own a firearm imho that is not for killing game. It might be too late in countries like the USA as everyone already has one under their pillow but in countries like mine I hope we never see that kind of distribution.

    @ Electric Fetus,
    I don't care if the gun has a 3 inch barrel and is a .22 . There is no reason for a magazine. Magazines are for killing people. PERIOD

    If you are a hunter who requires a magazine on your rifle then you are either too far away or a lousy shot and should consider bowling instead.

    @ R1D2,
    The AR15 if I recall is simply the civilian version of the Military M-16. As I said before you can easily convert most semi-automatics to fully automatic with a folded piece of paper or a matchhead.
    Using that logic would you be comfortable licensing M-60's? Why not license grenades as well (for hunting of course)?

    I will admit that firing a fully-automatic weapon or throwing a grenade is fun, but do we really need semi-automatics for hunting? A manually loaded weapon might give a hero a fighting chance in a mass shooting situation. As much as you would like a rifle in your gun case, remember that 100 lunatics will also get the exact same rifle.

    Funny sidenote: I'm Canadian but was touring Fort Knox Kentucky basic training. When I got to the Grenade range I was sitting with all of the new recruits. Every time a grenade exploded a hail of rocks and stones came flying and shooting off the roof of our bunker. These grenades seemed like they were digging to China.
    ------
    After some time we heard a message come from the Range Control Tower stating, "Would the D.I.'s (Drill Instructors) please quit throwing rocks at the bunkers!".


    I have used
    FNC1
    FNC2
    303
    .22
    9 mm handgun
    all with live ammo, and FNC1, FNC2 also many times with blanks on field exercises.
    a simulated M-16 with Kick (via a stick attached) at Fort Knox Kentucky.
    Have used M-60 with blanks.

    I have blown up cars, trees, welded structures (simulate bridge joints) with C-4. It is fun to play with Army equipment.

    None of it should be available to the public.
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,890
    I don’t know your country. But in the US, it is a vast land and people here keep guns for many reasons, including self-defense. When your nearest neighbor is miles away and police services are hours if not days away, people have to protect themselves. There are areas in this country where because of distance and terrain you cannot count on your neighbors or police for security. So self-defense is a legitimate use of guns in this country. People in some areas need to be able to protect themselves not only from criminals but wild animals as well (.e.g. bears, mountain lions, wolves, etc.). And then you have the “preppers” like Ms. Lanza who accumulate weapons in anticipation of a catastrophic social collapse – a variation of the self-defense need.
     
  14. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    2,320
    You are insulting me. You know nothing about guns in general. And I have neither the time right now or the capability to argue with you. I wish I knew you outside of sci I would enlighten you. but sadly you must remain in the dark. Even most bolt action rifles fire with magazines. BB guns have internal magazines on most of them.
     
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    18,477
    A semi-auto locked (mini or micro) uzi is no different from any other semi-auto pistol, why anyone would want a full size uzi that locked in semi-auto, when they can get a much lighter gun that shots the same? If semi-auto locked uzi are being purchased and then unlocked to full auto then a special law would need to be passed to outlaw them and any other particular model of gun that easily being made into full auto, and of course making such a modification should be illegal, heck even any detachable modification to a gun that makes a rate of fire greater then can be achieve via pushing the trigger repeatedly by physical will should be made illegal

    Sale, production and ownership of magazines with capacities greater then 10 bullet cartridges should be made illegal.

    and a Remington Model 700 is bolt action, not semi-auto. If the each round has to be manually fed, magazine capacity is sort of irrelevant. If I didn't specific that then:

    "Any full auto or semi-auto weapon that has ammo stored in detectable magazines, with muzzle energies over 1000 joules and barrel lengths exceeding 25.4 cm or 10 inchs, are illegal for civilian purchase or ownership"

    Do I need to define semi-auto and and auto then:

    "Any weapon that produces one or more projectiles upon depression of a trigger and then loads the next round(s) automatically, with detectable magazines, muzzle energies over 1000 joules and barrel lengths exceeding 25.4 cm or 10 inchs, are illegal for civilian purchase or ownership"
     
  16. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,088
    @ Joepistole,

    I understand your view. Even the odd horse needs to be put down. I still think Magazines are not necessary. If you want to defend yourself then a Manually loaded Hunting Rifle should be fine. I have chased off Coyotes from a Farm in the past and some predators can be scary. I have personally seen a grizzly bear, A Moose, Elk, a Deer as big as a moose, and of course fat black bears are common sightings at any dump north of the city.

    I'm going to find a picture of the AR15/M16 just to show people here.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Defending your family from a Town Ass is fine enough with a normal hunting rifle. One shot into his leg might slow him down some.

    This lunatic got his hands on a military grade weapon recently. I will say again. Loading manually would allow a hero a chance at saving people.
     
  17. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,088
    @ R1D2,
    I know more about rifles than most. I am actually hesitant to call them GUNS because I was trained that a Gun was anything over 2000 pounds. Untrue, but basically the military frowned on the term gun when referring to a rifle, and that saying was shoved in your face if you said gun. I could strip down an FN and put it back together in about a minute back in the day. We always kept our Breach blocks separate from the rifles in case of robbery.

    I was cross rifle/crowns and my rifle coach competed in England and I was a great shot. The trick is to NEVER move your left Elbow for grouping, etc.

    I think I know more than you think I know.

    I have used bolt action rifles with magazines. In an earlier post I said the 303 jammed so frequently it might as well be manually loaded, and I could care less about bb guns. Let them keep their internal magazines.

    You copied this from me.
    and then said I insult you. I insult your entire countries policies on handguns and rifles with magazines.

    I have cleaned my share of barrels in my day so doubt you can say I know little about rifles. Knowing more about rifles than me might be more common in America, but I am no stranger to them. It was not legal to fire the FN's in the city so we frequented Winona range, and Base Borden.

    Here is FN version

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    and I know as much about that weapon as anybody ever has, and have slept with the damn thing.


    I don't see what is so hard to grasp about magazines being dangerous. Civilian weapons should have some mechanism that stops the gun for at least 1 minute between each shot. Whether you are shooting a Cougar, a Deer, a Bear, or your uncle Frank there is no need for rapid fire. If you want it for fun go sit on a roller coaster. Red Dawn is only a movie.

    Semi automatics for civilians is insane, insane, insane.
     
  18. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,890
    Military grade is full automatic. The weapons under discussion are semi-automatic. The weapons used in Newtown and other mass murder sites were semi-automatic weapons. Military grade weapons (fully automatic) require a special permit and have not been used in these mass murder events. The assault rifles we are discussing are semi-automatic rifles that look like military riffles. Most hunting rifles are semi-automatic.
     
  19. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    2,088
    I understand that Semi-automatic weapons are popular. I also have said I was capable of converting the FNC1 into fully automatic with a matchhead placed inside.

    This is a young Indiana lady firing your AR15/M16 (version of) semi-automatic. Semi automatic simply means it is ready to fire as quickly as you can pull the trigger again. In ways it is more effective to aim and kill using semi-automatic. Fully automatic would rarely even be used in wartime.

    [video=youtube;K8nda8yPNbI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8nda8yPNbI[/video]
    (This is the weapon type that was used to kill the children at close range)

    All I am saying is that it would slow down the entire firing process if the user had to manually load a bullet each time.

    Even the bolt action rifles had magazines, but at least you had to perform a function to lose your casing and reload. I even think they are too much.

    Here is the same girl firing a 50 cal.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVMoOLh92S4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=7BLAf_o3MUU
    It is against the Geneva convention to use a 50 Caliper on a person during a war. How do these people get access?
    just the sound of it is crazy loud.

    That looks like it can hold 20-30 rounds in that magazine? What was the recent death toll at the latest mass shooting?

    You know you're a Redneck when,
    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?132802-Some-facts-about-guns-in-the-US&p=3028618#post3028618
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    14,174
    Exactly.

    Right - but it's that AND that's causing the problem. Shorter barrels are legal no matter what their mechanism or magazine capacity because then the statement is invalid. Lower muzzle energies make full-autos legal. Did you mean OR?
     
  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Full auto should be outlawed all together, that should be a separate sentence. Any specific semi-auto that can be easily modified to full auto should be illegal and any modification kits to make a gun fire rounds without having to squeeze the trigger for each round should be illegal. If its semi-auto it must have a barrel that does not excess 10 inch or muzzle velocity greater then 1000 joules to have a detachable magazine. And finally magazines detachable or not should not exceed 10 rounds.
     
  22. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    13,884
    We should also ban cars that do over 60 MPH because of how many people are killed by drunk drivers and teenagers that loose control of their vehicles... right? Same type of logic as you are applying to semi-auto weapons...
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    14,174
    Or perhaps ban cars without seatbelts, airbags and brake lights.
     

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