Solar System 'traverses all of the spiral arms of the Milky Way during 225my orbit ?!

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by dumbest man on earth, Aug 5, 2014.

  1. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,856
    In a Thread in the "On the Fringe : Alternative Theories :" sub-forum of SciForums, the following was Posted (Bold by dmoe):
    - the ^^above quoted^^ from Post #11 of : http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?142209-Solar-Cycle-cause&highlight=spiral

    Okay, I realize that this was Posted in the "On the Fringe : Alternative Theories :" sub-forum, so does that mean that it "can be" or indeed "is only" an 'alternative' view?

    I ask because it seems to conflict with what I have been taught and learned of the 'orbit' of our Solar System within the Milky Way Galaxy.

    I was taught and learned that our Solar System resides in one of the lesser arms of the Milky Way, commonly referred to as "Orion's Arm" or "Orion's Spur".
    From what I understand, our Solar System maintains its position in that lesser arm during it's 'orbit' of the Milky Way Galaxy.

    I start this Thread so that possibly some Members may be able to clarify the issue.

    It may well be that I was taught and learned spurious information, and although I find that rather hard to believe, I could and would of course have no choice but to accept that, if presented with True Scientific Evidence that what I was taught and learned was indeed spurious information.

    Until such time that any pertinent True Scientific Evidence is presented, I have no choice but to consider the Bold part of the ^^above quoted^^ Post be be, for all intents and purposes, nothing more than false, or 'nonsense'.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,353
    I want to know why they named our home galaxy after a chocolate bar? How dignified is that?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Janus58 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,791
    Here's the thing, the Spiral arms, at least to current theory, are not structures that rotate with the galaxy, instead they represent density waves, areas where stars are more densely packed. The movement of these waves are independent of the orbits of the stars themselves, so stars do pass into and out of spiral arms.

    The extra brightness of the spiral arms isn't just directly due to the higher density, they also have a higher percentage of massive bright stars. This also fits the theory. The greater density fosters a higher rate of new star births, including the large massive bright ones. But the brightest stars also have the shortest lifetimes. So what happens is that the brightest stars burnout before exiting the high density region, so you are left with a higher percentage of the smaller dimmer stars in the spaces between them.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,820
    Ha, ha, ha, DMOE, this is pretty funny. The second I saw this post I knew without a doubt that it was an attempt to make sure everyone saw that paddoboy was wrong. I really don't get what your beef is with him.:shrug:

    However, you have simply highlighted that he is right, so your feeble attempt to embarrass him has back fired and exposed you as the ignorant one. True ironic hilarity!

    Ask the astronomer.
    From the site:
    We pass through a major spiral arm about every 100 million years, taking about 10 million years to go through.

    Notice the bolded ^^quote above^^.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    Even the ancients thought the galaxy looked like a milk spill. The Greeks called it γαλαξίας (galaxias), "milky one," or kyklos galaktikos, "milky circle."

    On "Farscape," Crichton noted that Earth is the only planet that has chocolate--the reason he wanted to go back instead of living out his life in a gigantic trans-galactic spacefaring civilization. So it's reasonable to name our galaxy after a chocolate bar.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Nonetheless, this doesn't explain the Sandwich Islands, or an entire country named Turkey.
     
  9. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,353
    Or Greece. Or why so many cities in Europe are named after cheeses.
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225

    I don't believe you were taught anything wrong, but going on what I do observe on this forum, more then likely, you are probably misinterpreted what you thought you learnt.
    Janus is correct [as was I] in that spiral arms are actually "density waves" through which our Solar system, passes through in its orbital period about the SMBH at the galactic core.
    They could be described also as "traffic jams" speaking broadly, hence the apparent build up of stars, due to these gravity perturbations,






    As usual dmoe, I am happy to be of service, and certainly hope I can help you along the path of knowledge, at least in that area of Astronomy/Cosmology.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  11. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,856
    Regardless of what you 'assume' or 'presume' to know "without a doubt", origin, I started this Thread because the statement I quoted "conflicted" with what I was taught and learned, period.

    origin, by OP'ing this Thread, I may well find that I, dmoe, am indeed wrong. As I stated, I can and will accept that I am wrong, if presented with True Scientific Evidence that what I was taught and learned was indeed spurious information.

    Your 'bolded' quote in your Post, from my estimation(and after perusing the Link), does not entirely validate the "quote" I presented in the OP, nor does it entirely invalidate what I was taught and learned.

    Realistically, origin, you must realize that until Mankind has actually completed and actually witnessed at least One Entire Orbit of our Solar System around the Milky Way Galaxy (approx 220 to 230 Million years!)...then no completely definitive observational empirical evidence can ever be accrued.

    I am well aware that "Orion's Spur' links the "Sagittarius Arm" to the "Outer Arms" of the Milky Way Galaxy, and crosses the "Perseus Arm" in the span of it's length.

    I am also well aware of the fact that the Milky Way does not behave like the 'spokes on a wheel'. There is what is sometimes referred to as the "Winding Problem". It is explained by the "spiral density waves" analogy as touched upon by Janus58, in his Post #3.
    :EDIT: I do not believe that Janus58, in his Post #3, entirely validated the "Bold quote" in my OP. the current theory does allow for a Stars local orbital motions to "pass into and out of spiral arms".
    However, the current theory, from what I have been taught and learned of it, does not state that our Solar System passes into and out of 'all of the Spiral Arms of...the Milky Way' during it's ~225 million year "orbit" of the center of the Milky Way galaxy.
    If Janus58 was indeed validating the "Bold quote" in the OP, then I am quite sure that he would have stated as much.

    origin, from what I was taught and learned, it is false to state that our Solar System, or even "Orion's Spur" 'traverses all of the spiral arms...of the Milky Way' in their ~225 million year orbit around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.

    If I am proven wrong, I am proven wrong - I do not have a problem with that.
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225


    I'm certainly not out to prove you are wrong dmoe, as as far as scientific theories are concerned, none are ever really absolute proof.
    But the density wave theory has been around for at least since the 60's, which sort of supports my previous comment that you were probably taught correctly, but as you are prone to doing, then misinterpreted what you were told.
    Computer models, and other areas of data, observations and plain physics support the "density wave" scenario, and although not as yet at the same level of certainty as other scientific theories, such as the BB, SR, GR, Evolution, and Abiogenisis, it makes plenty of sense, and is generally accepted now by mainstream cosmological circles.
     
  13. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,856
    I formally ask paddoboy to provide Factual Scientific Evidence supporting his claim in Bold :
    paddoboy made the 'claim' in the "Alternative Theories" sub-forum, and also authored the OP Titled "For the alternative theorists:", which contained the following :
    - the ^^above quoted^^ from, and more at : http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?141223-For-the-alternative-theorists

    paddoboy has also stated in numerous Posts, that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

    There may well be students of Astronomy/Cosmology that access this Forum to gain true knowledge. I would like to believe that any knowledge 'gleaned' from SciForums by these students would be verifiable as accurate and correct.

    paddoboy should be able produce such verifying evidence if indeed his 'claim' is accurate and correct.

    paddoboy should also be able to do this without Posting any "ad hominems".
     
  14. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,828
    Wow.

    I saw no ad hominem attacks in his response to you, but I did read the comment above from origin that suggests you have unclaimed baggage of some sort. What's up with that?
     
  15. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,051
    Hahahahaha -- now, recognizing that you are wrong, you've set an impossibly high burden of proof to avoid ever having to admit it.

    Trouble is, you made your own affirmative claim:
    ...which doesn't require long-term observation to prove wrong and even if it did, you'd fall into your own trap and never be able to prove yourself right.

    It's quite a corner you've built for paddoboy and then backed yourself into! Now we get to see if you are more interested in intellectual honesty or not admitting fault. What you probably don't realize is that the one you think saves you more face isn't.

    [opens up a beer and a tub of popcorn]
     
  16. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,856
    @ Russ_Waters

    R_W, the "Realistically, origin,...definitive observational empirical evidence can ever be accrued..." paragraph in that Post was not intended to 'set an impossibly high burden of proof'. It was only an "aside", to origin.

    Indeed, R_W, this is a Science Forum, in essence a virtual quasi-peer review board. The Members of SciForums that are actually learned in the real Academia will decide when such "supporting evidence" is presented...
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225

    paddoboy, paddoboy, paddoboy! where would you be without paddoboy dmoe.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    You have failed to heed my advice my previous post thus........
    But anyway, some more advice. The onus of proof is on you. I have presented correctly, the current theory for spiral arms being what we call density waves.
    As I also said [referenced above] this theory has been around since the 60's, so obviously you were taught right at school, but as usual..........Interpretation has suffered.
    Is this anything at all to do with your denial of the BB?...Or your God botherer sympathies? or something else?

    Now dmoe, if you are still going to stubbornly resist what I'm doing my best to enlighten you on, you must provide evidence to show that we only travel in one spiral arm. The onus of proof is on you!
    In the meantime I'm sure that "the Members of SciForums that are actually learned in the real Academia will decide when such "supporting evidence" is presented"... to use your own words.
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    I'm actually counting myself quite lucky origin...Imagine living next door!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  19. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,856
    Dr_Toad, to find out 'What's up with that?", you should query the Poster who suggested "that".
     
  20. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,856
    The same place that I was before you were 'Moderated' away from CQ.

    Who are you to give advice?
    You should be providing supporting evidence of your 'claim'.

    "Waffle" all you want, paddoboy, that is not a substitute for providing supporting evidence of your 'claim' :
     
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225

    I'm not playing your childish games dmoe.....
    The onus of proof is on you.
    Until then, the incumbent model stands as the most accepted explanation of spiral arms. :shrug:

    But, please accept the following advice......



    [1] Scientific theories do not deal in proof...how many times this has been told to you and other God botherers and Alternative pushers is now astronomical in number.

    [2] Scientific theories do though grow in certainty over time and continuing aligning with further observations and experiments.

    [3]The density wave theory is the current incumbent model, and the onus of "proof" that the anti science brigade so often call for is on you.

    [4] Since you are unable to provide your "proof", evidence better supporting another model, or invalidating the incumbent model would be desirable.
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225
    Some Interesting info re galaxies, particularly spiral galaxies.....

    Our best observational support of the billions of galaxies we see are that they come in mainly three flavours...elliptical spiral and irregular.
    The MW like the other large galaxy in our local group is a spiral...more correctly, a barred spiral.
    The picturesque spiral arms are the result of what is know as "density waves" caused by gravitational perturbations, and stellar and debris build up, analogious to a traffic jam.
    These spiral/density wave regions are also most likely where the main build up and formation of stars does take place.
    Gaseous debris and stars, including our Sun, pass through these spiral arms in there journey around the galactic center of gravity, which just happens to be where the SMBH resides.
    The "barred aspect" of some spiral galaxies, is also thought to be a result of density waves, although a lot less is know about that peculiarity.

    The most amazing thing about our own barred spiral, is the fact that although being immersed, "so to speak" within the MW, we can determine that we are indeed a barred spiral, and determine our position, at this time, in regards to the rest of the galaxy, and even determine how those spiral arms formed and the traverse path our own solar system takes through those arms, in its journey around the center of mass of the galaxy..
    We did not need to step outside our galaxy and take a snapshot to determine its shape.
    Many many hours over many many nights, over many many years, and resulting measurments and observations, was all that was needed.

    Most largish galaxies like the MW and M31 contain hundreds of billions of stars, and the shape of galaxies is determined in part by gravitational interactions with its companions and galactic mergers or collisions.

    Galactic formations in the very early Universe, was dictated by the very slight variations in the CMBR......


    As Carl Sagan once said, "Cosmology/Astronomy is a humbling business"or words to that effect.
    Nothing could be more factual.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225

    And it appears this "quasi peer review board" has made its decision.
     

Share This Page