Simple truth

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by wesmorris, Apr 20, 2014.

  1. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Was watching a four hour thing on the ongoing financial tsunamis and it seemed to justify my personal take on the matter as fundamentally necessary if the insanity is to be as minimized as possible.

    => so long as executives in businesses or government can be insulated from personal consequence, financial markets will abound with corruption.

    => in business dealings, the expectation of "fair trade" (forthright representation of products/services) must be fundamental and bear dire consequence if proven to be violated. (this is what i think of as 'enlightened capitalism')

    If not, those of lacking conscience will continue to rob the entire planet.


    (difficult to implement because "the lie" is such a powerful tool, but no more so I'd think than current systems)

    I'm sure however, whatever system that is possible to create in light of the above would likely lead to greatly reduced economic activity and/or would be gamed into the ground by the same sociopaths who are doing it now. *sigh*

    (off topic: I also think for prosecutors there should be a possibility, if shown beyond reasonable doubt that the conviction was pursued to further the career of the prosecutor, to bear the sentence of those they wrongly convict)
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  3. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    The Industrial Era is creaking to a close. This changes the rules under which industry and government have been working for almost two centuries. So it's no big surprise that they're all behaving like idiots in a transitional period that they (and everyone else) can't understand, much less control.

    Just look at the upheaval in society at the cusp from the Iron Age into the Industrial Era. (Read Dickens if you need a refresher.) No one could really foresee what life would be like a mere 50 years later: a surplus-driven economy instead of scarcity-driven, an advertising industry to sell that surplus, a 40-hour week instead of 120, universal literacy, people traveling farther than 20 miles from the place they were born (we call them "vacations" today), less than 10% of the population working in the food production and distribution industry instead of 99%, city streets no longer shin-deep in horse manure, infant mortality down from 80% to less than 1%.

    Now look at the changes that the Information Revolution (Electronic Age, whatever you want to call it) has already wrought. Now try to imagine the changes that will continue occurring before you die.

    Most of these businesses that make you angry will be gone. It's quite possible that the artifact of the corporation itself will become obsolete. It was necessary for the gigantic projects of the early Industrial Era like steel mills and trans-continental railroads, but much of the activity taking place today is very small-scale. As I've noted before, my friend's son and his wife founded a very successful software house in Estonia, using as capital only cash they got by selling their house.

    And there are people working on a much smaller scale than that!

    Surely a few corporations will remain necessary: Microsoft, FedEx, IBM, Wal-Mart, an airline for people to use on vacation and an aerospace company to build the planes, certainly some pharmaceutical companies, probably quite a few large entertainment providers--music, movies, and whatever the new media might be. But they won't have the critical mass to gain control of the government. Most of the work will be done by motivated individuals with great ideas--sitting in a chair typing.
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  5. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Yes a perfect society (of humans) is impossible, but in the economic area, China has made great advances with a new system.

    The Chinese learned from the USSR's mistake. Do not try to centrally plan what is available to buy in the market place. They trust the "invisible hand" of Adam Smith to do that well but there are terrible crooks (sociopaths you called them) in the Chinese population too, despite their educational system stressing the need for a "harmonious society." Yet the CCP makes few regulations compared to the US about economic activity. In the US we have a small army of bureaucrats making (and often changing later) PREscriptive rules business must follow, often even at local government level. For example, in some counties, your hot water pipe must be copper, yet in the next county it can be the cheaper high temperature rated plastic pipe. Not only do these complex and varying rules greatly add to the cost of products in the US, the bureaucrats want a salary and retirement plan too.

    China does have the equivalent of the FDA, FAA, FBI, etc. for needed control of the sociopaths who would and occasionally do damage the population, but this control is POSTscriptive and does not need an army of bureaucrats making up the rules as the US's PREscriptive rule system does. - Just the inspection and testing agencies like their "FDA" and a judicial system.

    I.e. in China if your do significant damage to the people your go to jail and if it caused deaths, you die. For example several business men who put a toxin in their watered down milk to make it still test as if had the normal range of protein content are no longer living. And their execution was not decades after their "crime against the people" as in the US, but only a few months.

    SUMMARY: China has invented a much more efficient and innovative market place than any society has ever had. - Little wonder they have for 3 decades at least three times higher GDP growth than the US has had. As a couple of example of how innovative their market is: (1)There are more than 30 car companies. One only sells a dozen or so very special cars each year to older rich Chinese who rode in a rick shawl all their life. It has a single "Throne like" back seat and one for the chauffeur up front. (2)Thousands of a special cell phone are sold each month to ladies, mainly. In addition to all the normal functions of a cell phone sold in the world's largest cell phone market, it has a small re-fillable chamber and spray pump for perfume. If you can make a profit on a product in China and it does no serious harm, the are no bureaucrats telling you: "No it does not conform to our specifications." so it will be there for you to buy. - Adam Smith sees to that, and requires neither salary nor pension plan.

    So would you say: "Only China has "enlightened capitalism" in a truly free market place?
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Well the threat of consequence has done nothing to reduce our prison population. There will always be people who think they can beat the system and as long as there are humans there will be the possibility of corruption regardless of the consequences.

    The best remedy for corruption is transparency, regulation, vigilance, and education. And there is no substitute for any of those remedies. Our recent round of troubles began when special interests were able to get regulation which had been put in place after The Great Depression in order to prevent another great depression repealed.
  8. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Actually China is one of the more corrupt countries. It ranks number 80, just below Tunisia, Senegal and South Africa.
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    I am not sure where you are trying to go with this, but if by the industrial era, you mean mechanized manufacturing, that era isn’t drawing to an end. As long as population levels do not decline, manufacturing will still be needed. What will change is the demand for labor. As machines replace human effort, there will become less and less demand for human labor. That doesn’t eliminate corruption. As long as there are humans, there will be the potential for corruption. It’s in our DNA. The best we can do is to manage it.

    The economic and personal challenges presented by our technology will be enormous, but the benefits of that technology will also be enormous. How we fare them is still a big unknown. There are a lot of unanswered questions and I don't think the average Joe has any inkling of what is about to hit him. But I am optimistic.
  10. river

  11. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Funny that Bernie Madoff wasn't found out about for over 40 years so he had it made all those years and now the money left will keep his family in the lap of luxury forever.
  12. river

    Isn't all business a ponzy scheme
  13. kmguru Staff Member

    The catch is, China will be openly the highest economic country in 5 years and in 25 years will have everything USA had plus some that took 200 years for USA to get in to. And yes they are most we will be happy but 99% will be poor...
  14. kmguru Staff Member

    But Business People can not say that....
  15. river

    But we , the public, know different , don't we
  16. river

    The point of my post #7

    Is this

    There is a covert economy of which we , we , being the public , have no idea that it exists

    And it is all based on gold , gems , etc. Gathered from the Axis looting of Europe and Asia

    Which was confiscated by the US

    Hence there is a lot more gold and gems , than is publicly known

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