Signs of the Last Hour

"I am undecided as to how much of this may refer to the symbolic destruction of our own world, or the spread of atheism or what have you"

atheroy
Did you just read a sentence with the words destruction and atheism in it and then make a leap? I said that since I consider much of the Bible to be symbolic I wasn't sure what particular things about which Revelations was meant to be warning us. I then expressed two separate ideas 1. the destruction of our world (by our flagrant excesses or wars or pollution,etc) OR (now here's the tricky part) the spread of atheism. Perhaps both. Atheism in the guise of communism have done their fair share of damage so please come down off that high road. Also, people of faith live longer, suffer fewer diseases and recover more quickly than the faithless. I read this just a few weeks ago in Newsweek I believe (or Time maybe, you know waiting room literature). Where atheism goes higher crime and the breakdown of the family unit often follows.

Besides, it's a religion. It's going to be anti-atheist. Deal with it.
I don't care if you're a dick, I care if you're a dick who starts arguing a statement before he gets to the end of it.

 

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Or it could apply on the whites as well.

So vague and useless according to who ?? to you ??

Taken away means it will be difficult to access an thus unable to find it.

The population in Europe is NOT increasing, it is decreasing my friend specially in Britian:

Living with Britain's population timebomb

http://society.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,7838,1130899,00.html

Bull !! Adultery is NOT common everywhere certainly not in the Muslim world, it does happen but it is NOT common, dont think all soceities are as hedonistic as yours.

Sure, I said before this is about MAJOR sing of the last hour.

We are not talking about Americans who claim to be prophets or sons of God, we are talking about people who draw support like the false prophet of the bahais, the prophet of ahmadiya, the mormon prophet...etc the figure came in the prophecy was 30 prophet.

Sure you would not advice that because you will lose the debate about the increase in crime !!

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They are very well justified, I saw and feel and sense that by myself, here in the west time passes very very quickly indeed !! it is very clear.

It is so amusing that you did not provide any evidence for your quotes...I provided well documented observations of the earthquakes that happened lately, what did you provide ?? Just look at what happened in PAM in Iran few months back !!!

With pleasure ! LET ME START WITH THIS:

An Analysis of Suicide Rates

1951 and 1988

Emile Durkheim's Suicide, published in 1897, saw rising suicide rates in the western world, and he explained this rise as a function of the failure of the state, church, and the family.

This table explains the number of suicides per 100,000 in 1951 and
1988 in the United States. There are age and gender divisions.

______________________________________________________________________
Number of Male and Female Suicides by Age, 1951 and 1988

15-24 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 65-74 75+

1951 (male) 6.1 13.2 20.3 29.0 37.8 52.0 57.9
1951 (female) 2.3 4.8 7.4 9.0 8.8 9.6 8.2

1988 (male) 21.9 25.0 22.9 21.7 25.0 33.0 57.8
1899 (female) 4.2 5.7 6.9 7.9 7.2 6.8 6.4
_________________________________________________________________

The 1988 rates are directly from The Statistical Abstract of 1991.
The 1951 rates were derived from the number of suicides in 1951,

stated in Vital Statistics of the United States, 1951, Vol. 2, and
the 1950 population rate, stated in The Statistical Abstract
of 1951 (from the 1950 census).

http://eserver.org/history/suicide-1951-1988.txt

The Graying of America: Suicide rates increase as seniors age

http://www.naplesnews.com/npdn/neapolitan/article/0,2071,NPDN_14939_2549239,00.html

Note: in the centuries prior to the 20th century people used not to age too long, they used to die in their 60s-70s

EMFs Increase Suicide Rates

http://www.mercola.com/2000/aug/13/suicide_emfs.htm

This study examined mortality from suicide in relation to estimated exposure to extremely low-frequency electromagnetic fields (EMFs) and found a significant increase in the risk of suicide.

Note: Before people did not know or have EMFs, now they do so the rate of suicide IS INCREASING !

-Figures confirming Russian suicide levels are among the world's highest were reported last week, putting a tragically human face on Russian economic decline since the Soviet collapse in 1990. Russia registered 39·7 suicides per 100 000 people in 2001, claiming 57 000 lives, according to a report released in collaboration with WHO by the Russian Ministry of Health's Research Institute of Psychiatry.

The new figures represent a dramatic increase in Russian suicide rates since 1990, the last year of Soviet government in Russia, when the suicide rate was reported to be 26·4 per 100 000 people.

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7257-3.cfm

DONT CHALLENGE ME AGAIN REGARDING SUCH MATTERS JAMES....YOU LOST THE CHALLENGE !!

Yeah and the pigs will fall after that over the disbelievers heads !!

You got it wrong, the fact that so many Muslims have the name Muhammad make it a fact that AL MAHDI will come whose name will be Muhammad ibn abdulahh.

I am sorry james but you are not being honest here, you DID NOT deal with the proofs that I have posted about Islam being the fastest growing religion on earth ! I will post them again and I CHALLENGE YOU AND EVERYONE IN THIS FORUM TO REFUTE THEM

Islamic Britain lures top people

Sunday Times 22 February 2004
MORE than 14,000 white Britons have converted to Islam after becoming disillusioned with western values, according to the first authoritative study of the phenomenon.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/649424.asp

-'' Indeed, Islam is the world's fastest growing religion in the world'' The Economist, London Sept 2003

-BBC: Thousands of Asutralia's Aboriginals are converting to Islam:
http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2902315.stm

-Islam is spreading so fast in Mexico:

http://www.finalcall.com/international/mexico07-02-2002.htm

http://www.racematters.org/islamtakesrootinmexico.htm

- EVEN IN HAWAII, MORE AND MORE ARE CONVERTING TO ISLAM:

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Nov/11/ln/ln06a.html

-In South Africa, so many blacks are converting to Islam:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0110/p13s1-woaf.html

-Thousands in Rawanda-Africa are converting to Islam every year:

http://www.xamarcadde.com/rawanda.html

- Hindus in india are converting to Islam :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2344445.stm

- Islam is back to Spain after 500 years:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1002/p07s01-woeu.html

- More and more americans are converting to Islam specially after 9/11:

http://www.yorknewstimes.com/stories/042702/neb_0427020012.shtml

- NEW YORK TIMES: ISLAM ATTRACT THOUSANDS DRAWN BEFORE AND AFTER 9/11:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30D13FA345A0C718EDDA90994D9404482

- The Canadian Globe and Mail: Islam is now the fastest growing religion in Canada:

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030514/UCENSN/TPFront/TopStories

Islam: The Next American Religion?
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/69/story_6982.html[/COLOR]

Catholic World News: Exhilarating Time To Be Christian," But Islam Grows Faster

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=16311

U.S. Department of State for International Information programes: Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in America:

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/muslimlife/

Muslims outpace Anglicans in UK

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/444572.cms

A Spanish bridge to Islam:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1002/p07s01-woeu.html

Islam is spreading even in Ukraine ( Former Sovit christian republic )

http://www.crimeatau.org.ua/project/islam/itriu.html

AMAZING !! Guantanamo Bay Guards are converting to Islam: ( even this hate site reported it )

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34783

CNN: Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world:

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

Islam is religion No.1 in Amsterdam-Holland:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/724820/posts

Reuters: Italy's Ambassador to Saudi Arabia (formerly to Albania) Converts to Islam

http://www.alb-net.com/pipermail/alb-club/Week-of-Mon-20011126/011399.html

And many more links...

NOTE: NOT A SINGLE SOURCE FROM THE ABOVE IS ISLAMIC OR FROM MUSLIM SOURCES !!

Really !!! so how Islam is growing then in the west ?? dont tell me migration because migration would mean increase in one part of the world and decrease in another...

I dont deny the fact that Muslims have higher birth rate but this is NOT the only factor.

OH MY GOD !! are you serious ? are you for real ?? even 10 years old boy will realize that ice melting in the northen pole will DEFENIATELY change the sea levels !!! I am beginning to question your own intelligence James !!

This is OUTRAGEOUS CLAIM FROM YOUR SIDE.

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What it is with this ''thinking for yourself ''?? I am MUSLIM, I think ISLAMICALLY, I am not like you who have no religion or no faith to inspire him !! no wonder when you guys think you come up with absolute nonesense !!

This is not the issue, the issue here is the specific place of the fire.

I dont think you have any particular areas of expertise James !!

So reputable space scientist is someone whose statements suit your agenda, right James ?? if he happenen to say the sun will at one stage raise from the west then he is not reputable !!!!

Great, let me find it for you.

Only Allah almighty knows, but since the major sings did not appear yet ( like the second coming of Jesus (pbuh ) ) so you dont need to worry but that does not mean you should stay disbeliever.

You know James, NO MATTER what I do, NO MATTER what proof I give, you wont believe ( hell, some people on sciforums even want me banned as well, clearly I am too dangerous for their disbelief ! )

Allah Almighty described people like you in the Noble Quran:

''And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand. '' (The Noble Quran 2.171 )

It all depends on the our beloved prophet Jesus ( peace be upon him ) when he will come back everything will be clear and truthful.

Have a nice weekend.

 

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Islam is not re-packed version of christianity, Islam is the CORRECTION to christianity, Islam came to correct the myth about Jesus being God or the son of God, Islam came to correct the myth about 1+1+1 = 1 ( trinity ), Islam came to tell not only Muslims but christians and jews and all mankind about the one and the only true supreme majestically infinite God ( Allah in Arabic ).

http://www.jesus-or-allah.com

 

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Proud Muslim,

One simple fact. If I start a religion and I find one (1) other person to join me during the first year, my religon would have doubled and it surely would then be the fastest growing religon in the world.

Growth rate depends very much on the numbers from which you start.

But most importantly Being the largest or the fastest growing does not equate to being valid or valuable. It could just as well spell the demise of an intelligent thinking society.

 

Not to jump on the bandwagon, but Christianity is exploding in Africa, Asia and even in the Middle East. I am a practicing Catholic and my particular church is run by the Oblates of Mary Immaculate, which is an extremely evangelizing Catholic order. Their method is to insert themselves into areas and live by example, helping the poor and building free houses for the homeless. A number of former Muslims who have converted to Christianity with the help of my parish and who have since moved to the US have explained to me that the growth of Christianity is causing real problems for governments in Muslim majority countries. Christianity is also posing serious challenges to communist regimes such as China and Viet Nam. South Korea is becoming more Christian than Buddhist.

My understanding is that in the Middle East many Christian converts have to pray secretly, living as Muslims by day and Christians by night, worshiping in a basement or warehouse out of fear of political persecution at worst or social ostracization at best.
This situation, similar to that of Communist countries, means that it is difficult for us to account for many Christians in certain parts of the world and are most likely under counting.

I only mention this anecdotal evidence because, due to the fact that Christian worship is not actually enforced in any country, it is unlikely that Muslims run into the same problems of undercounting their adherents. We don't count our adherents to play the "Big Religion" game but rather to determine how best to meet the needs of our co-religionists.

Further, apostasy is not recognized in Islam so Islam and Christianity are both counting some of the same people. In the US last year, Muslim organizations claimed there were 8 million Muslims in the US. When a later survey on religious adherence was conducted, 76% of the Arab population claimed by these Islamic organizations as Muslims identified themselves as Christian. One imam was quoted in an article reporting about the study (I am doing this from memory, I think Pew Research did it but it could have been Zogby) as saying "Don't let them kid you. For every one who converts, ten leave." I don't know if this is true, it simply means there is another outlook regarding the growth of Islam.

Some estimates on religious adherence which I've seen indicate that 63% of Christians emigrating to America continue to practice their religion vs 25% of Muslims. Again, if it's true there could be many reasons for this, such as the people most desirous of leaving a Muslim country might be non-practicing Muslims and Christians, or the comparative ease of Christian practice in America, but it's another view nonetheless.

Islam claims to grow 235% every decade for the last 60 years. This is patently absurd as the population figures from 1985 indicated there were 700 million Muslims. A growth rate of 235% per decade would mean we would have upwards of 3.8 billion Muslims today and we only have 1.2 billion. Christianity, conversely, has more than doubled its number in that same time period.

 

I dont think that include someone who does not know anything about ISLAM.

Go to your first response !! you are contradicting yourself, first you claimed the population is increasing, when I proved to you you are WRONG, you said SO WHAT ??

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Load of Bullshit....heresay and assumptions are not acceptable in any debate as you might know !!

I am reading what you are writing SIR.

Go and check the FBI files and compare them with let say the 1970s figures.

No, it does not talk specifically about actual change in time, it takes about how time will passes so quickly.

Loooooool !! very funny, I provided comprehensive study of earthquakes occurance with links, while you just posted something without refernce !!

Blah blah blah.....you lost the debate about suicide rate and you know that, you are too arrogant to admit it.

LOOOL ! Another funny desperate conclusion by you !! really James, no matter what, you are blind.

Not true, they are not around us 100 years ago.

These are NOT stories my dear friend, they are facts about people converting in their thousands.

How about this AMERICAN NEWS website which confirmed that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3067495/

But these are not people's opinions, they are FACTS.

ALL sources not just the one that suits you.

Islamic Britain lures top people
Sunday Times 22 February 2004
MORE than 14,000 white Britons have converted to Islam after becoming disillusioned with western values, according to the first authoritative study of the phenomenon.

These are the reported figures, what about the not reported ?

Plus, christianity is declining all over the world and you know that, shall I blast the references for you ? or shall I do as you do, just post statements without references ??

Not true , go to the ECONOMIST archive, check the issue date ( which I provided ), it is there on page 6 of their survey of Islam, I have the copy with me now.

Not true, because the Aboriginals in Australia are few in numbrs as well:

BBC: Thousands of Asutralia's Aboriginals are converting to Islam:
http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2902315.stm

What a load of crap jAMES??

Islam is spreading so fast in Mexico:
- EVEN IN HAWAII, MORE AND MORE ARE CONVERTING TO ISLAM:
-In South Africa, so many blacks are converting to Islam:
-Thousands in Rawanda-Africa are converting to Islam every year:- Hindus in india are converting to Islam :
- Islam is back to Spain after 500 years:
- More and more americans are converting to Islam specially after 9/11:- NEW YORK TIMES: ISLAM ATTRACT THOUSANDS DRAWN BEFORE AND AFTER 9/11:-
The Canadian Globe and Mail: Islam is now the fastest growing religion in Canada:
Islam: The Next American Religion?

The above like the thousands in Rawanda who are converting and in Canada and even in America are not opinions..

Even NEW YORK TIMES talked about THOUSANDS of Americans CONVERTING to Islam, so if we add the thousands from every link I have provided, we will get SIGNIFICANT INCREASE !! but oh well, since when blind people accept any facts ???

So what ????? I like this so what !! it is only used by people who cant refute the evidence presented to them so they become defensive !

Yes, one of the fastest in AMERICA, the fastest in the world.

Nonesense, Anglicanism is the main religion in England....I thought you already knew this very simple fact.

This is not the point, the point is that Islam is spreading even in its enemy heartland !! got it ??

CNN: Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world:

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

did you check the date of the article ?

Islam is religion No.1 in Amsterdam-Holland:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/724820/posts

Really ?? Islam is religion NO.1 in Amsterdam and you said this has nothing to do with growth rates !! are you for real ???

He is NOT any person:

Reuters: Italy's Ambassador to Saudi Arabia (formerly to Albania) Converts to Islam

really ! I guess you wont say the same had my sources were ISLAMIC sources !!

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Or look at America !!

You are really increadible ! why you always insist on challenges which you know will be lost !! why you challenge someone you know he will beat you ! HERE YOU GO, READY TO EAT, VERY NICE HUMBLE PIE !

In its 2001 assessment of global warming, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) projected that global mean sea level is expected to rise between 9 and 88 centimetres by 2100, with a 'best estimate' of 50 centimetres.

Higher temperatures lead to higher sea levels

A warmer world will have a higher sea level because as the land and lower atmosphere of the world warm, heat is transferred into the oceans. When materials are heated they expand (thermal expansion). So the heat that is transferred causes sea water to expand, which then results in a rise in sea level.

In addition, water from land-based ice such as glaciers and ice sheets may enter the ocean, thus adding to the rise

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has been established by WMO and UNEP to assess scientific, technical and socio- economic information relevant for the understanding of climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation. It is open to all Members of the UN and of WMO.

http://www.ipcc.ch/

fair enough.

What Truth ? who hold the truth ? do you have monopoly over it or something ?

I think independently when it comes to matters which has nothing to do with my faith, like my car colours and my house, my food...etc.

No it would not, but if I was presented with damming proof about that, then I will believe him, unlike you who insist on keeping blind eye.

DONT WORRY, I AM READY:

LET ME NOW PROVE TO YOU THAT THE SUN WILL RAISE FROM THE WEST ONE DAY: REMEMBER YOU PROMISED TO EMBRACE ISLAM AFTER PROVING TO YOU THAT THE SUN WILL RAISE FROM THE WEST !!!

LET US START:

When the Cosmic Crunch to the Universe occurs, the Day of Judgment shall come:

Let us look at what Allah Almighty said about the "Cosmic Crunch" Theory:

"The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it. (The Noble Quran, 21:104)"

The following article http://www.bigear.org/vol1no4/wheeler.htm, which contains an interview with a Scientist, Professor John Archibald Wheeler, who was a colleague of Albert Einstein, explains the Noble Verse above in good details.

Important Note: Before we go into the article, it is important to know that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him had also talked about the "Cosmic Crunch" Theory by predicting that the Sun around the time of the Cosmic Crunch's occurrence would rise from the West and set in the East due to a change in our orbit's rotation .perhaps the "Cosmic Crunch" would cause the Earth to flip upside down, which would cause the sun to rise from the West and set in the East, or perhaps it would change the rotation of the sun and its planets all together:

Narrated Abu Dhar: "The Prophet asked me at sunset, 'Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?' I replied, 'Allah and His Apostle know better.' He said, 'It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah:

'And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.' (The Quran 36.38)

(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Beginning of Creation, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421)"

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established........and till the sun rises from the West. So when the sun will rise and the people will see it (rising from the West) they will all believe (embrace Islam) but that will be the time when: (As Allah said,) 'No good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before, nor earned good (by deeds of righteousness) through its Faith.' (6.158) And the Hour will be established while two men spreading a garment in front of them but they will not be able to sell it, nor fold it up; and the Hour will be established when a man has milked his she-camel and has taken away the milk but he will not be able to drink it; and the Hour will be established before a man repairing a tank (for his livestock) is able to water (his animals) in it; and the Hour will be established when a person has raised a morsel (of food) to his mouth but will not be able to eat it.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Afflictions and the End of the World, Volume 9, Book 88, Number 237)"

"The Day ye shall see it, every mother giving suck shall forget her suckling-babe, and every pregnant female shall drop her load (unformed): thou shalt see mankind as in a drunken riot, yet not drunk: but dreadful will be the Wrath of God. (The Noble Quran, 22:2)"

Cosmic Search Vol. 1 No. 4
FORUM: John A. Wheeler
From the Big Bang to the Big Crunch

Scientist-philosopher, teacher-cosmologist, father of the Black Hole, Wheeler's thoughts encompass the entire cosmos from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch.

This exclusive interview with John A. Wheeler was made by Mirjana R. Gearhart of COSMIC SEARCH.

COSMIC SEARCH: You have often commented that the greatest discoveries of science are yet to come. What do you have in mind?

Wheeler: To me, the greatest discovery yet to come will be to find how this universe, coming into being from a Big Bang, developed its laws of operation. I call this "Law without Law" [Or "Order from Disorder"].

COSMIC SEARCH: Could you explain further?

Wheeler: One of the biggest problems is how to state the problem. It's an old saying that the minute you can state a problem correctly you understand 90 percent of the problem. One of the greatest problems concerns the meaning of measurement or observation. According to quantum theory, measurements can influence what happens. The fact that it is difficult to talk about this problem in an easy way suggests that we have much to learn.

This is a partial response to your question. Putting it another way:

How can we possibly imagine the universe with all its regularities and its laws coming into being out of something utterly helter-skelter, higgledy-piggledy and random?

Or, in still another form:

If you were the Lord constructing the universe, how would you have gone about it?

COSMIC SEARCH: That certainly is a very deep question.

Wheeler: It's inspiring to read the life of Charles Darwin and think how the division of plant and animal kingdoms, all this myriad of order, came about through the miracles of evolution, natural selection and chance mutation. To me this is a marvelous indication that you can get order by starting with disorder.

COSMIC SEARCH: Do you think there can be any progress on this problem?

Wheeler: One of the conditions, I think, for advance in this field, as in any field, is believing that advance is possible. What I hope I'm creating is a sense of faith that it can be done. Faith is the number one element. It isn't something that spreads itself uniformly. Faith is concentrated in a few people at particular times and places. If you can involve young people in an atmosphere of hope and faith, then I think they'll figure out how to get the answer. Faith and hope are absolutely central to everything one does.

You need people who have imagination, daring and the ability to get somewhere. That, to me, is the way research works.

Of course another point to all of this is to keep in touch with key ideas, with what people are doing. Make sure you aren't overlooking something. Here's where it's so important to talk with the young people. Some modest young person comes along with some idea no one else is paying any attention to. His idea may just be the central point.

I'm very fortunate that at Austin, the University of Texas has been willing to finance this kind of work, bringing in two or three people each year for a period of time. So, we'll see what happens.

COSMIC SEARCH: You were a colleague of Albert Einstein. We are celebrating the 100th anniversary of his birth this year. When did you first meet him?

Wheeler: October 1933, the month he took up permanent residence in the U.S. was my first meeting with Einstein. Then in 1953, when I first started to teach relativity at Princeton, he was kind enough to invite me to bring my students around to his house for discussions. So, we sat around the dining room table and his secretary, Helen Dukas, and his stepdaughter, Margot, brought tea and the students asked him questions.

COSMIC SEARCH: Are there some tenets of his that stand out in your mind?

Wheeler: Yes, his work revolved around three rules which apply to all science, our problems, and times:

Out of clutter, find simplicity;

From discord make harmony; and finally

In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.
COSMIC SEARCH: You began your work in relativity about that time then?

Wheeler: Yes, it was about the period 1952-53-54-55, Einstein's last four years, when l was just getting into relativity. The thing that really got me into it more than anything else was this concern about what happens to a cloud of matter when it collapses. What's the final state?

I had not yet invented the term "black hole". I hadn't yet realized how important it was to attach a name to this concept.

COSMIC SEARCH: How did you come up with the name "black hole"?

Wheeler: It was an act of desperation, to force people to believe in it. It was in 1968, at the time of the discussion of whether pulsars were related to neutron stars or to these completely collapsed objects. I wanted a way of emphasizing that these objects were real. Thus, the name "black hole".

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The Russians used the term frozen star -- their point of attention was how it looked from the outside, where the material moves much more slowly until it comes to a horizon. [Or critical distance. From inside this distance there is no escape.] But, from the point of view of someone who's on the material itself, falling in, there's nothing special about the horizon. He keeps on going in. There's nothing frozen about what happens to him. So, I felt that that aspect of it needed more emphasis.

COSMIC SEARCH: A few years ago you asked the question: "Are life and mind irrelevant to the structure of the universe, or are they central to it?"

Have you found an answer?

Wheeler: No, I'm one of the most baffled men in the world on this subject. There is a line of investigation involving the anthropic (or man-related) principle -- the idea that the universe has to be much as it is or life would be impossible. Not only life as we know it, but any life at all would be impossible. On what else can a comprehensible universe be built but the demand for comprehensibility?

My Princeton colleague, Robert Dicke, expressed it this way:

What good is a universe without somebody around to look at it?

That, to be sure, was an old idea, going back not only to the Bishop Berkeley of the time of Newton, but all the way back to Parmenides, the precursor of Socrates and Plato.

But it was new in the form that Dicke put it. He said if you want an observer around, you need life, and if you want life, you need heavy elements. To make heavy elements out of hydrogen, you need thermonuclear combustion. To have thermonuclear combustion, you need a time of cooking in a star of several billion years. In order to stretch out several billion years in its time dimension, the universe, according to general relativity, must be several billion years across in its space dimensions.

So why is the universe as big as it is? Because we're here!

COSMIC SEARCH: A very interesting view.

Wheeler: You could put it another way: You can say there's an efficiency expert who's come to look over the Lord's shoulder. He says,

"Why, Lord, you're wasting a lot of money on this universe. See, you've put one hundred billion (10^11) stars in the Milky Way, and you've put one hundred billion (10^11) Milky Ways in the universe -- that's ten billion trillion (10^11) stars -- that's a mighty extravagant way to get one planet (the Earth) with life on it so there'll be somebody around to be aware of this universe. Now, Lord, we efficiency people want to cut you down, but we won't cut you down to one star. Instead of 10 billion trillion stars, we'll cut you down to one hundred billion stars -- that's enough to make one galaxy. This will be a great economy move."

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Here is the rest of the article:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/hot_gas.htm

JAMES !! YOU HAVE TO EMBRACE ISLAM NOW AS YOU PROMISED !!!

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LOOK UP....John A. Wheeler, Scientist-philosopher, teacher-cosmologist, father of the Black Hole, Wheeler's thoughts encompass the entire cosmos from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch.

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Albert Einstein, Hidekei Yukawa and John A. Wheeler at Princeton in 1954. Yukawa received the Nobel prize in physics in 1949.

Nah, you have to EMBRACE ISLAM RIGHT NOW AS YOU PROMISED ! I PROVED TO YOU SCIENTIFICALLY THAT THE SUN WILL RAISE FROM THE WEST, SO WHEN ARE YOU PLANNING TO MAKE YOUR SHAHADA AND BECOME MUSLIM ?

This is what people say when they lose the debate, you know, I debated so many non muslims, some of them were honest enough to admit their mistakes, some accused me of being extremist, some like you accused me of being fanatic, others said I am sell out Muslim, the fact remain, DEBATE ME WITH FACTS OR GO AND DRINK THE SEA !

Or even when I present FACTS, the haters, the liars and the islamophobes wont believe me, they are as Allah almighty described them in the Quran; DEAF, BLIND AND MUTED, THEY CANT UNDERSTAND.

I am not interested in anyone to convert to islam, certainly not in this biased anti muslim forum.

You are now LYING !! I challenge you to show me where I advocate violence against innocent civilains, I CHALLENGE YOU, GO ON AND PROVE IT !!

Indeed, anything which contradicts Islam should be thrown into the rubbish.

THAT IS WHY SOME HATERS ARE TRYING TO BAN ME !! IF I AM NO DANGER AT ALL TO ANYBODY'S DIS BELIEF, WHY THEY ARE TRYING TO BAN ME THEN ????????????????????????????

The Noble Quran is NEVER wrong, it is the absolute truth.

Now, after proving the above, and proving to you scientifically that the sun will raise from the west, it is the time to go ahead and BAN ME !! I am to much embarrassment to you and to others..

You are too quick to delete my posts, accusing me of cuting and pasting with no refernce while you allow haters to post anti muslim materials with impunity, you are the demonstration of the western hypocrisy.

James, I am not fanatic, I am PROUD MUSLIM, in fact, I am VERY VERY PROUD MUSLIM, no matter what you or others do ( even baning me ) this wont stop me, wont affect me, it will only make me stonger in my belief and in my great faith, I dont adovcate violence against innocent civilians, I advocate legitimate self defence against the aggressors.

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com

Finally, I saved this response because I thought it is the best response I had on sciforums so far, no one will ever stop ISLAM, NEVER:

''They the disbelievers want to extinguish Allâh's Light (Islâm) with their mouths, but Allâh will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the disbelievers hate it. '' The Noble Quran 9:32

 

Proud Muslim,

I have already explained to you in real numbers that Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the world, although it is growing. Much of the discussion about the growth of Islam in the US was based on false census information which was later rectified. I think JamesR's larger point about Islam being number one in Amsterdam not being significant is because agnosticim or non-association with a religion is growing faster than Islam amd all other religions. It is also almost completely due to migration. Catholicism and Protestantism are both Christianity, just with different styles of church service but all teach from the Bible and the fundamentals are the same so, by your own admission, Christianity is the largest in Amsterdam with 15%.

Separating Catholicism and Protestantism is akin to separating Sunni and Shia Muslims...they are all still Muslims.

 

Paula here is a good exercise for you to get in shape for debating with PM
step1: Go out to garden
step2: Find a rock
step3: Debate with rock
step4: Insist on relevant reply from rock
step5: Convert to islam in exasperated confusion

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I used to wonder at the martial skills of the arabs who invaded and conquered so many countries in the centuries after muhammed. The longer I am on this forum the more I am beginning to believe that they just double talked and bullshited them into submission. I don't believe a thing PM says but I am almost ready to convert if he will just quit posting fer chrissake

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I see.!

Neither 'change in our orbit's rotation' nor 'earth flipping upside down' would make the sun to appear to rise from west.

'Perhaps' the change in the rotation of earth would make sun to rise from the west. What sort of energy and stress earth would have to face for that, you have any idea.? or what are the consequences of this upon life on earth.?

Simply, none will be alive around to see the sun rising from west.

BTW, the term "Perhaps" is not proof. Sometimes, it is used to connect 2 unrelated events by rumor mongers.

 

Islam coverts way more people than Christianity. the ratio is 10:1 according to the CIA book of world facts. Christianty hasn't doubled since 1985 either. that was a toal lie :bugeye: Also those 2 Billion "Christians" dont follow the religion at all they just have the name. also Christianty isn't practiced nowadays by many people the 10 commandments are forgotten, vicars become gay, eveyone commits adultery and has pre-marital sex. evryone gambles, drinks etc.

if you want to see the examples of this look all around you. Go to a strip club and ask who's Christian here, go to a casino look around you at normal people. look at rge Vicars, who are meant to be the most pious who turn gay after being condemed by the Church.

or even look at famous people

take a famous example, Beyonce and Britney Spears. both claim to be "very good Christians" "raised from a religious families". Now Britney has had sex before marrage (with Justin), got married for joke and divorced 24 hours later, drinks, gambles (makes regular visits to LV casinos) and has possibly commited adultery (mediam assumption by quotes from Justin). Christians aren't allowed to dress sexually and not to allowed to seduce men and must dress very modestly but most Christians dont these daysc especially Britney She(has done several cover shoots in undewear). Beyonce also claims to be a good Christian. i wonder what her local church in Texas has to say about her micro skirts in her videos. in "Naughty Girl" where she sings about seducing a man hern skirts are so small you can see her underwear!

And like a said Christinaty is just a symbol these days people where crosses for fashion. 50 Cen says hes Christian and has a vedry nice diamond cross but says things like "my songs belong in the Bible with King David" (get rich or die tryin LP) also raps about havign sex,drugs,adultey and his fellow G-Unit endorse a porn company. so much for good old Christian values!

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SOURCE: THE TIMES OF INDIA (same company as The Times in the UK)

LONDON : Attendance at Britain 's mosques has outstripped the number of regular worshippers in the Church of England for the first time, media reported on Sunday.

Figures compiled from government and academic sources show that 930,000 Muslims attend a place of worship at least once a week, as against 916,000 Anglicans, The Sunday Times reported.



Muslim leaders said that it was a landmark in the rise of Islam in Britain and that Muslims must receive a share of the Church of England's privileged status.



This weekend David Hope, the Archbishop of York, second in the church hierarchy, conceded. His spokesman said: "The archbishop acknowledges the overtaking of Church of England numbers by the Muslim community. But he believes that many more people have an affinity to the church than the number recorded as having attended once on a Sunday."



According to the 2001 census, three-quarters of the British population regards itself as Christian.



The Muslim community does not keep registers of attendance in mosques. However, the 2001 census included a question about religious adherence.



Those results, released last year, have been supplemented by surveys to indicate the first reliable assessment of worshipping Muslims.

 

"Islam coverts way more people than Christianity. the ratio is 10:1 according to the CIA book of world facts. Christianty hasn't doubled since 1985 either. that was a toal lie Also those 2 Billion "Christians" dont follow the religion at all they just have the name. also Christianty isn't practiced nowadays by many people the 10 commandments are forgotten, vicars become gay, eveyone commits adultery and has pre-marital sex. evryone gambles, drinks etc."

Preacher X,

I could not find anywhere in the CIA World Fact Book what you describe concerning Islam converting at a rate of 10 to 1. The 2 billion Christians is inaccurate since the numbers are really somewhere between 2.2 billion and 2.6 billion but it is difficult to count all of our brethren in communist China and the Middle East as well as other parts of Asia and some parts of Africa. We know we have lots of secret churches operating and my church operates quite a few of them in Saudi Arabia no less!

Islam also counts many of the same people Christianity counts because Islam does not recognize apostasy. As for your comment on Britney Spears and Beyonce Knowles representing the failure of Christianity I will simply point to the high illiteracy rate in the Muslim world and compare it with Allah's directive to Muslims to read and learn as indicative of the failure of Islam.

This may not be fair, but it is at least as fair as your statement. Western European Christians represent a small number of Christians worldwide and the Christian faith is alive and well in North and South America, Eastern Europe, much of Asia, more than half of Africa and is even growing in India. these are areas with huge populations and new Christians are primarily in countries with high birth rates.

By the way, I actually know quite a few devout Christians and would happily get you in touch with them if you wish to further your spiritual understanding of Christianity. It's quite lovely, particularly in its modern and moderate form. (We had to smack our fundamentalists around some but they're safely reined in now.)

 

Paula,

I agree with much of what you say. A lot of westerners are babtised at birth and never follow the religion they had imposed on them.

But in the larger view I much prefer a little pre-marital sex, adultry, etc, to going around killing innocents in the name of a religon - suicide bombers. Shhhs. 30 virgins sounds decatant to me.

 

MacM,

As a practicing Christian I will forgive you for putting Preacher X's words in my mouth.

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Paula,

If I quoted the wrong person you have my apology but you can keep your forgiveness and prayers

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.

 

You did not provide any solid evidence, I dont accept hearsay, you know !

Not true, MSNBC and THE ECONOMIST both reported that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth.

NONESENSE, migration means increase in one part and DECREASE in another, this is NOT the case with Islam.

 

Re: James:

Just give it up James, you lost the debate, be BRAVE enough to admit it.