Should we use data of Nazi's human experiences?

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.... Mmmmm, most enlightening. Thank you old man for your candid response and, of course, please do accept my unreserved apologies for so rashly jumping to so obviously an untoward conclusion as you being in any way antisemitic in your view point.

Clearly, you are merely speaking from your stance as being an exemplary humanitarian.

 

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He's an admirer of the Samurai culture. No doubt that defines his outlook.

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Really?

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Tsk! Then why didn't the pillock just say to begin with... have y'any idea how many perfectly good comas I wasted on those last three posts....?

 

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Mr. Anonymous:

Apology accepted.

And yes, as SamCDKey pointed out, I much admire samurai culture and ethics.

 

Bells:

In line with SamCDKey pointing out my support of samurai ethics, I will quote from Yamamato Tsunetomo's "Hagakure" (The Shadow of the Leaves):

"The Way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that dying without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or death, it is not necessary to gain one's aim. We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaining one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way. His whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling. "

"The way of revenge lies in simply forcing one's way into a place and being cut down. There is no shame in this. By thinking that you must complete the job you will run out of time. By considering things like how many men the enemy has, time piles up; in the end you will give up. No matter if the enemy has thousands of men, there is fulfillment in simply standing them off and being determined to cut them all down, starting from one end. You will finish the greater part of it. "

If there is truly a fear for one's family or one's compatriots, the proper way is to dispatch of them yourself. For in so doing you can assure both their honourable deaths and a minimalization of their suffering.

An ex-girlfriend of mine had confided in me that she believes in a past life she suffered through the holocaust. Although I am skeptical of any such claims, that is not important. In this life, she said she had two children. When she got to the camp, she took a large rock, and smashed both their heads in. She was later shot in the face.

This was the proper thing to do.

Ultimately, survival is not the end all, be all. There is a time to kill and a time to die.

Indeed. Such would have been their fate.

All the more reason to throw their lives away and attain victory in death. Better that one die with the blood of one's enemies on one's hand.

That is still cowardice.

All the more reason...

 

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... Nuhhhhhhhhh, y'big ninny.

All this time I, and I suppose pretty much most others have have taken part in this, have been thinking you were arguing from some from of either morally or, at the very least, ethically based standpoint - and all the time it turns out to be just something you've read in a bladdy book?!

Good gravey, man - Samurai expected only other Samurai to adhere to and apply Samurai code - as far as they were concerned no one but a bladdy Samurai was capable of such discipline and conduct - therefore no Samurai would ever pass such condemnation upon others unless they too professed to be Samurai Warriors or else fought against them in battle.

They relied on others not being able to avail themselves as Samurai could - their bladdy livelihoods depended on it.

To judge a non-Samurai culture by a code of conduct they themselves have not in the slightest elected to adhere to is a frankly idiotic standpoint to take - moreover, it's completely fallacious .

For a Samurai to fall as these people did, undoubtedly ignobility and shame on them - but for the love of Christmas none of us, except you here, have at any point being discussing the ethics and morals of bladdy Samurai Warriors...!

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By the Samurai's own code, the Jews were not Samurai - only a Samurai could possibly be capable of so lofty a status and, as such, one could not expect them to act as that which they were not. A Samurai would view this no differently.

Here we were, thinking we were having an ethical debate about the moral rights and wrongs of the use of data obtained from illegal medical experiments on concentration camp victims - and all the time you've been slagging them off because they didn't act like Jedi Knights?!

Un-fucking-believable! Grow up.....

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Bells:

It is likely an irreconciable difference in our perspectives. However, what if there were two options like this:

1. Kill your child.

2. Do not kill your child, but let him/her suffer the worse things in the world. INdeed, inhuman, horrific things. Stuff that would make Dr. Mengele vomit in disgust.

Which would you do?

Mr. Anonymous:

You do not seem to realize that I said I -admire-, not -base- my system of ethics on samurai. I incorporate some aspects of its moral system in my worldview, but not all. It is rather significant contributor to my moral philosophy (as is Stocisim and Aristolean virtue) but it is not the basis of my moral beliefs.

I have argued not because Yamamato Tsunetomo has said so, or Miyamoto Musashi has declared, but based on what I think is most rational and most moral.

 

Kaiser Solsei! Remember the story told about him in the usual suspects? Someone was threatening his family so he killed them all himself!

I though that was just trying to portray him as a badass. I didn't know it was part of a philosophy.

 

It's a bit of both, but yes, it has historic foundations.

Pretty good movie, by the way. Kevin Spacey is quite the actor.

 

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.... In other words, you've cherry picked - taking the philosophies and principals of men who lived specifically by a prescribed set of moral and ethical principals upon pain of death and dishonour and taking only the bits you personally just like the sound of that allow you personally to feel morally superior to others you yourself judge inferior - not the originators of these ideals themselves - but you.

In truth what you espouse here is simply self righteousness - you disclose no moral or ethical argument of your own only that of other people which suit your personal tastes - in short, no opinion of your own.

Equally, no true opinion of anyone else for that matter.

Y'know, I can quite understand now why you were taken with that story of the Power Ranger kid up in Free Thoughts - but exactly like that child, you seem convinced that simply by putting on the outfit of a superhero (mentally here, by adopting the philosophical trappings of true warriors you yourself only have the most academic of understanding of) one in truth becomes that heroic and virtuous individual.

Personally, I'd go more for the Bat Man thing - when y'get to my age you need all the help y'can get and black is terribly slimming - but this is all the stuff of books, fantasy and historical myth.

If you've ever read Mien Camp you'll find your merging of disparate but similar ideals together into a single cohesive governing philosophy is a process chaps like Hitler liked to indulge in - not true thinkers, philosophers - certainly not true warriors - just the weak and self righteous.

Should you wish to continue being so viewed, pray do continue - I could howl at this Secret Samurai crap for weeks and hardly ever get bored - but this is supposed to be a discussion the ethical and moral rights and wrongs of using unethically gained scientific data and this is all so waaaaaaay of topic right now it applies to something only you view tenable - not even the originators of the particular philosophies from which you so readily borrow would agree with you - you're point of reference here is so way off it's like dropping into a portion of the Twilight Zone.

Fascinating insight though that may be - it's nigh on impossible to regard in anyway seriously.

I'm sorry old San, but.... this really is just too delicious not to snigger .....

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Mr. Anonymous:

Do you want me to establish for you a thorough and complete moral system whereby I justify my arguments based on it and give you some foundation whereby you can critique it internal to that system?

Moreover, you seem to have some sort of problem with me both affirming and denying the ways of the samurai. When I evidently gave you reason to believe I was trying to a neo-samurai, you attacked my position. Now that I made it clear my ethical system is not 100 percent Bushido, you seem to disregard that, also. So which is it?

 

the fact of the matter is these jews were INNOCENT, their only crime being labeled as a jew.
that does not absolve dr. horsedick of his inhumanity.

the fact that the jews didn't die to the last man fighting does not make them cowards.

 

Prince James: for someone who speaks about morals so much, you seem curiously lacking in humanity. Is it cold up on that mountain? I bet it is.

 

And this matters to you, why?

 

Mossada What!

Your facts are not verifiable. It's not Mossada; it's Masada. The Mossad (in Hebrew: Ha Mossad) means "The Institute" in English. Mossad agents are not zealots, they are trained professionals. They are considered the best in the world, by some, at what they do. What they do is deal with threats to "Eretz Yisrael," and its people. Those who don't consider this fact, fall prey to what they misunderstand. Iran is falling prey as we speak. Masada was 2000 thousand years ago. This is today.

Your statement about bravery (yours) is not verifiable and is therefore a self-serving statement. Your statements about the Jewish Men in the Holocaust is ignominious. Those with their families were surrounded not only by Nazi Soldiers, but also; Gestapo, the Abwehr, and native Germans reporting them, out for fear of their own safety, and more. What's more, some people signed up to fight for the German Army with the best of intentions- only to be stripped of medals, commissions, and rank (and ultimately sent to Concentration Camps) because they had down to as little as 1/8th Jewish blood in their veins (the gestapo would search anyone's background, anyone but Hitler himself!). They were called "Mischlings." (mixed blood). Men of all walks of life should reject your characterizations as garbage!

 

Do mods have the ability to archive posts?(or at least make them not searchable)...seems googlers keep resurrecting old topics.

 

Ya can't get older than "Mossada Zealots."

 

i think its important that the immorality be emphasized, and the doctors who performed the experiments shunned. its important that people know they won't be praised for doing that kind of shit. use the research, it could save lives or whatever, but don't release the names of the doctors who did it. or give them false names or something. lets keep fame and glory for humane people.