Should we use data of Nazi's human experiences?

the polish army was a world class outfit.
what they lacked was equipment, not bravery.

 

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Yes of course we should, I'm sure we already have.

 

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This guy, he is using the same tired arguement, that the rape victim was asking for it because they couldnt stop it.

 

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Leopold99:

The Polish army and European Jews are not one in the same. My charge is against European Jews and the cowardice which let themselves be slaughtered.

 

Let me ask you something. If you had a daughter, and some guy raped her, would you blame your daughter or the rapist?

 

TimeTraveller:

I'd blame the rapist first and foremost. I would hope, however, that I would have raised my daughter well enough to be able to defend herself, including carrying a pistol on her person, and avoiding bad neighbourhoods and secluded areas. I'd also tell her that it is better to fight and to die when the only alternative is to be slaughtered in shame.

 

Alright, so you understand. Apply this feeling to the Jews please. You know, there were a lot of women who died. Yeah you can say that the Jews were not the best fighters, but really, it's not like the Nazi's were following the rules of war or anything. Also it was impossible for the Jews to fight an entire army, so yes they could have fought and died, or just died.

The real question is, what impact did the holocaust have on the war? Would the USA have won the war if Hitler had a completely united Germany? I'm not sure the USA could have won if Hitler and a united Germany took on the world. The Jews may not have been the best fighters, but they were damn smart, good scientists like Einstien, and the Jews were brilliant businessmen. It might have actually benefited the German economy.

 

TimeTraveler:

"Better that we die on our feet than live on our knees". The only honourable and moral way for the Jews to respond to the Nazis would have been to fight without regard for their victory. Many victories would have, in fact, been won this way. The guards at Auschwitz could have easily been over run in an inmate insurgency.

It is interesting to consider the Nazis -with- the Jewish manpower they sacrificed for idealogical means, yes. Imagine, a goosestepping Einstein? Pretty interesting speculation.

 

Hmmmmmmmm. this is what the palestinians and some other muslims are doing is it not? Yet you do not honour them...or do you?

You applaud the actions of 9/11, this was the oppressed fighting back, taking a stand against the odds?

 

TheoryOfRelativity:

Actually, I harbour great respect for the bravery of suicide bombers (including the 9-11 hijackers).

I can respect and admire my enemy even as I think they are wrong. Although actually, I am rather neutral in regards to the Palestine/Israel conflict. I am not an Israeli, nor a Jew, and the Palestinians do deserve a homeland. On the other hand, the Jews oughn't be targetted for violence and the state of Israel is legitimate through Imperial mandate. The time for a true Palestinian state is needed, though.

 

By who, exactly?

By the time most Jews were actually shipped to the camps they'd already been confined to city ghetto's for a considerable number of weeks and months - years, in some cases. Starved, beaten, sick. Denied basic human rights, recognition of citizenship, the option to leave, adequate food and medical supplies for the duration. The only way either in or out of the Ghettos was via armed checkpoint - barb wire and barricades defined the Ghettos.

If a Jew refused to obey an order five or ten were summarily either hung or shot by firing squad in front of the rest - have you any idea the number of men, women and children who died that way there in the streets of what were basically their own homes?

Before the Ghetto's went up the Germans had basically robbed them of but the very basic of things they could readily hide - after they came, they came en mass and with guns which they used - there were resistors. They were shot.

You make noble speeches about:

However, you've never in your life been put in a situation where your daughter could be hung or shot for your act of rebellion right in front of your eyes.

Do you honestly think a single one of these people accepted their eventual fate either blindly, willingly or in anyway easily - of course, a bullet would have been so much quicker and kinder in comparison to what fate awaited them - but they weren't privy to what became, subsequently, History.

You honestly think a single one of the men there took so much as the first rifle butt in the face and the kicking that came afterwards because they liked it - that they were in anyway, at least in the early stages of Ghetto's, incapable of striking back? People did. It got their wives and their children murdered.

Frankly, you don't display the guts to endure one fraction of what these people went through. And this is before they actually got to the camps.

Thousands died through sickness and starvation there in the Ghetto's, left to rot. Thousands more never survived the fright cars - packed side by side, indeed treated worse than animals - malnutrition had already worked its magic - most were too weak even to stand.

Then, for the survivors, came the camps.

Segregation, slave labour, starvation conditions. Overrunning the guards, no worries. Piece of piss.

You don't seem to understand here what the word survival either means or entails, James. For that, I'm glad for you.

For your wife, your daughter - not so much.

Still, just a bunch of Jews right? Probably got, in the end, what they derserved....

 

That's what I've been trying to say!

 

I believe that heart transplants owe much to Mengele's experimentation.

Skin grafts as well.

Probably more.

 

and the people he experimented on were not volunteers.

 

Well said. Indeed the Nazi hatred of Jews stemmed largely from their resistance to fascism, in the form of popular newspapers that were highly critical of them. The communist parties in Germany had a high Jewish participation, and unlike today, formed uniformed gangs that fought it out with the National Socialist parties in bloody street battles. Of course, this was before the Nazis took over completely.

For most of the Jews who died in the gas chamber, the issue of resistance was not an issue at all. Until as late as mid-1942, the Jews were unaware that the Final Solution was being implemented. Stripped of weapons, facing starvation and disease, the prospect of deportation combined with offers of food was an incentive for Jews to board the trains which took them to their deaths. Most believed what they were told that they were going to be relocated to work. For virtually all, the reality that they faced immediate death did not occur until the doors of the gas chambers were sealed, the lights were turned off, and the smell of gas was perceived. By then, it was too late. Those who did resist, either by running from the trains, or attacking their captors, faced certain death. Some took advantage of this option and were summarily executed on the spot. Others chose to take their own lives when faced with the hopelessness of the situation. It might be argued that suicide under these circumstances was itself resistance.

Armed Ghetto Resistance
1. Tuchin Ghetto: On September 3, 1942, seven hundred Jewish families escaped from this ghetto in the Ukraine. They were hunted down, and only 15 survived.

2. Warsaw Ghetto: By 1943, the ghetto residents had organized an army of about 1,000 fighters, mostly unarmed and without equipment. They were joined by thousands of others, mostly the young and able-bodied, still needed for forced labor. By that time, the half-million original inhabitants had been depleted to about 60,000 as a result of starvation, disease, cold, and deportation.

In January 1943, the S.S. entered the ghetto to round up more Jews for shipment to the death camps. They were met by a volley of bombs, Molotov cocktails, and the bullets from a few firearms which had been smuggled into the ghettos. Twenty S.S. soldiers were killed. The action encouraged a few members of the Polish resistance to support the uprising, and a few machine guns, some hand grenades, and about a hundred rifles and revolvers were smuggled in.

Facing them were almost 3,000 crack German troops with 7,000 reinforcements available. Tanks and heavy artillery surrounded the ghetto. General Heinrich Himmler promised Adolf Hitler that the uprising would be quelled in three days, and the ghetto would be destroyed. It took four weeks. The ghetto was reduced to rubble following bomber attacks, gas attacks, and burning of every structure by the Nazis. Fifteen thousand Jews died in the battle, and most of the survivors were shipped to the death camps. Scores of German soldiers were killed. Some historical accounts report that 300 Germans were killed and 1,000 wounded, although the actual figure is unknown.

3. Bialystok Ghetto: Jewish paramilitary organizations formed within the ghetto attacked the German army when it was determined that the Nazis intended to liquidate it. The battle lasted just one day, until the resisters were killed or captured.

4. Vilna Ghetto: Some inhabitants of the Vilna Ghetto began an uprising against their Nazi captors on September 1, 1943. Most participants were killed, although a few escaped successfully and joined partisan units.

Armed Resistance in the Death Camps
1. Treblinka: Seven hundred Jews were successful in blowing up the camp on August 2, 1943. All but 150-200 Jews perished, as well as over 20 Germans. Only 12 survived the war.
2. Sobibor: Jewish and Russian prisoners mounted an escape attempt on October 14, 1943. About 60 of 600 prisoners involved in the escape survived to join Soviet partisans. Ten S.S. guards were killed and one wounded.

3. Auschwitz: On October 7, 1944, one of the four crematoria at Auschwitz was blown up by Sonderkommandos. These were workers, mostly Jews, whose job it was to clear away the bodies of gas chamber victims. The workers were all caught and killed. \

More.

 

I'm first generation English. Country my father was born in had been occupied by the Communists under Stalin before the war and then handed back by the Allies shortly after. Have a fair degree of understanding of what it means for a people to be subjugated and treated as second class citizens in their own country with no option to leave and nowhere to go even if they succeed.

The problem with America is that its physically isolated - like Britain. What people of Prince James' sort singularly fail to realise is that all the various countries of mainland Europe are physically connected - someone wants to pop off for a spot of annexing over the weekend - all it takes is firing up the Panza's and driving quite literally down the road.

It's all so straightforward for people who aren't and never likely will wake up one morning to find an army of occupation actually their on their doorsteps to acquire some cak-handed view point regarding how simply, easily and incredibly quickly a whole nations life can be turned literally overnight completely on its head, with no certainty of either hope, what the future holds or any measure of reprieve.

Still, fortunately for the rest of us their are warriors, brave, noble chaps like Prince James with certainty and providence on their side to be their guiding star - Roman, you're a fortunate chap to have been born with your head screwed on the right way round.

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You're terribly kind to say, but I believe you've done a far better job actually backing that up with something...

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And?
I thought the thread was about the usefulness of research carried out through immoral means. It's a given that the research subjects were not volunteers.
If they were volunteers would the research then become moral?

 

Is the scientific data from these experiments so important? I can't imagine with the state of science today that it is still all that relevent. I would rather pay a couple million dollars towards modern research than reap any benefit from the Nazi research.

 

in my opinion? the research is worse than useless.
as a matter of fact if the victims do not get credit for the discovery i will never, to my knowledge, use it for myself or my family.

and in most cases they never knew untill the process was underway.
it also must be pointed out they were not convicts or other of the same ilk, they were ordinary citizens, like you and me.

if they knew what they was volunteering for? yes.

regardless, the victim deserves the credit, patents, and any other monetary gains from what was gleened from his body.