Should the U.S. troops leave afghanistan ?.

Discussion in 'World Events' started by mike47, Jul 31, 2009.

?

Do you think the U.S. should pull off Afghanistan ?.

  1. Yes

    33 vote(s)
    57.9%
  2. No

    24 vote(s)
    42.1%
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  1. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    3,373
    Its indisputable that a diplomatic hand over of the perpetrators was possible, but never honestly pursued by the US. This simple action could have save untold lives.
     
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  3. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe because the Taliban were not honestly offering it.
     
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  5. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    9,391
    Indisputable? Hardly. There is insufficient information available to the public to definitively evaluate that claim. Even the principals to the negotiations, on both sides, probably don't know for sure whether such an approach would have succeeded.

    And for that matter, handing over those directly involved in 9/11 wouldn't have been sufficient. There was also the matter of closing down AQ's camps and operations in Afghanistan in general. To avert war, a concerted, sustained political alignment between the Taliban and the US would have been required, which is a much bigger deal than simply handing over a few criminals.

    It's the same issue that impedes a negotiated withdrawl today: the Taliban say they only care about Afghanistan and don't threaten anyone, etc., but there is zero confidence that they would not continue their ongoing coordination with AQ, much less aggressively impede them.
     
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  7. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    An unfounded assumption. The offer is clearly on the record.

    etc.
     
  8. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    9,391
    Sincerity is not available on any records.
     
  9. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    3,373
    Nor assumptions.
     
  10. countezero Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,590
    Bullshit.

    See Quad's excellent post. The only thing I would add is that people had tried negotiating with the Taliban for years. None of them ever got anywhere.

    Meanwhile, we have a clear case study in Pakistan that shows us what happens when states try to barter with the Taliban and give them a piece of land to live on. IE -- the bargain does not last, and the Talibs inevitably strike out again.
     
  11. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    No, this is far from clear, and there are complex factors at work, including the US bullying Pakistan into confronting the Taliban, and therefore spilling the conflict over from Afghanistan into Pakistan, now know as the AfPak theater. What we do have is a clear correlation between intensified drone attacks and the level of instability in Pakistan. As we can see from the recent spate of attacks, we are facing a real possibility of a descent into chaos and perhaps a failed nuclear state.
     
  12. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    3,373
    It was certainly worth a try, sadly the agenda did not allow for this as it seems there is evidence that plans were already in place in June 2001 for an invasion of Afghanistan.
    link link
    So we know definitively that war is the better, rational option, rather than political alignment and dialogue, even though the latter was not even remotely attempted to draw definite conclusions as to their worth?
    That old chestnut does not fly, give that AQ is not representative of Afghanistan, they can set up shop wherever they want, they are not in the least bit limited to Afghanistan or Pakistan. London, Bali, Madrid, wherever.
     
  13. countezero Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,590
    As usual, you do not know what you're talking about.

    Many of the Taliban are from Pakistan. They never left. The conflict "spilled over" when the Taliban in Afghanistan fled to Pakistan and stirred up trouble there. The US is not bullying Pakistan into confronting the Taliban, Pakistan has chosen to do that on its own after YEARS of doing NOTHING against the Taliban. It chose to deal that because all the deals it cut with them fell through and the Taliban began to seek more territory.

    You're making a causation/correlation mistake. The violence was increasing for years. The drone attacks only escalated after Obama came to office.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,824
    Are you kidding? Before the US invasion, the Swat valley and Mari were tourist destinations. My cousins used to go there all the time. Now even Karachi is unstable The Americans have screwed up BIG TIME in both Afghanistan and Pakistan [or Afpak, for the verbosity challenged]
     
  15. Grim_Reaper I Am Death Destroyer of Worlds Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,349
    Yeah let us leave them be let them hand over a few token people that will become heros of the people as soon as they are in jail. And oh yeah a few months latter give them back because their group has a building or a plane full of people hey want to trade for Yeah that is a better Idea.
     
  16. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    Yah, I find it sad though that nobody in NATO has figured out that ever since we went in there to do our mission, to eliminate terrorists, there have become more terrorists.

    Violence only creates more violence.

    Peace can only create more peace.

    The best case scenario in violence is that you destroy your enemy, the worst case is you inflame the situation.

    In peace, the worst case scenario is nothing happens, or you may slightly offend the person you try to make peace with, the best case, is you make permanent lasting relations.

    Id like to see more peace and less violence.
     
  17. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    I could not understand a thing you were trying to say.
     
  18. Grim_Reaper I Am Death Destroyer of Worlds Registered Senior Member

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    1,349
    Peace yes that would be great, there would be such a lovely world Lollipops and unicorns. Witht the wee fairies flying around gathering there fairy dust. Wide spread peace will never happen and those that say oh peace would be a good thing are grasping at straws. Never happen ever to many people hate others becuase their God has a bigger Dick then Your god kind of thing.
     
  19. Grim_Reaper I Am Death Destroyer of Worlds Registered Senior Member

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    1,349
    Perhaps you need to re read it again. And see that I was saying was this. We take the people they offer to US as the "Evil Doers" follow me so far. And then in time I said a year or so. The other "Evil Doers" decide hey I liked the way Osama prepared his camel, I think we need him back. So then they go out and take a lot of people and hold them captive until Osama is let go. Oh and then guess what they most likely kill some of the people the take or they keep some and say oh by the way. I think I want some more. How was that you abe to follow that.
     
  20. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    Peace will happen when people realize it's possible. And it is. Grim, I like the idea of peace not so much of meaning no more war. But that it would be amazing to see how fast we could innovate with everyone working together. ie, in one hundred years, divided we went from wooden gliders to supersonic stealth fighters. If we had all worked together, im willing to wager we could have done that in 30 years to 50 years.

    Imagine if we all worked together how fast we could advance.

    The only "dicks" there are, are people that oppose peace just because they dont think it can happen.
     
  21. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    Despite the horrible language construction and grammar issues and a few spelling issues, "abe" by some miracle I could not only figure out it was english, but I could understand it.

    So what is your point?
     
  22. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    53,766
    That doesn't mean shit.
     
  23. Grim_Reaper I Am Death Destroyer of Worlds Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,349
    Here how is this for you. "We Dont Negotiate With Terrorists." Once you start to do that you are indeed on a very slippery slope.

    How is that concise enough for you and the other Phonetic Police.
     
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