Should men have a say in abortion ?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by RainbowSingularity, May 25, 2019.

  1. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,028
    I don't have to establish anything.
    It's your political horsrecrap that's making repressive laws against women.
    Come to think of it, horses make quite neat fertilizer; your politics are less pleasant. Lets call it hyppocrap.
    It's your political hyppocrap that forbids sex education in public schools.
    It's also your political hyppocrap that reduces funding to perinatal care and children's health.
    It's your political hyppocrap that underfunds and understaffs family services.
    It's your political hyppocrap that throws children in cages.
    It's your political hyppocrap that bombs civilians in distant countries.
    It's your political hyppocrap that executes people, often innocent people.
    It's your political hyppocrap that claims to revere human life that hasn't happened yet, while treating humans who are already alive like dirt.
     
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  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    "Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive or experience subjectively"

    curiously
    from that definition
    i would hazard the guess that all life is sentient
     
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  5. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    5,028
    They promise nothing. They know nothing. Most of them pass harmlessly through the body, unnoticed and unmourned.
    Potential can mean anything - beneficial or destructive; good or evil; happy and productive or miserable and costly.
    Potential has no value.
     
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  7. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    3,368
    If a man wants to insure that his seed is not aborted, then he needs to be careful where he plants them.
     
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  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,573
    That's true on both sides. Perhaps there is a better way to promote the value of life than by assaulting women and showing pictures of dismembered fetuses.
     
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  9. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    6,757
    And you are rapidly sliding down the slope toward fascism by forcing women to have babies.
     
  10. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    6,757
    The freedom to control your own body.
     
  11. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    At the expense of another? Honestly, Bob, I'm not certain how I feel about anti-abortion laws. What I do know is that I can't kill another person for the benefit of personal convenience. I suppose it would be easier if I could reduce them into something less than human, which is where these discussions usually go.
     
  12. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    8,828
    I don't know that truth can be considered an assault, but I do believe people can be reached in a less graphic and a more sympathetic manner. I would like to try myself.
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,959
    It wasn't a comparative question, Capracus. Changing the subject doesn't work; see below in re "unequal advantage", for a more relevant consideration of this risk she undertakes. Meanwhile, his liability risk is his liability risk.

    From the standpoint of having an equal opportunity in regards to a commitment to parenthood, as I said↑ when I walked into the discussion, every man should have the same right to terminate a pregnancy he is carrying as a woman.

    Ceteris paribus is not in effect; this is actually observable. "Unequal advantage" is terminology subordinate to your particular framework. Consider a process that takes about ten months, damages a body while as it progresses, requires difficult and dangerous labor or else surgery to complete, and then a period of months to years in order that one might recover physically as much as possible, although never completely, and is known to have the effect of drastically and even fundamentally altering the way a particular psyche functions in relation to the reality it perceives. In the decision to carry forward with a physically damaging, mind-altering process or not, the fact of its occurrence in and upon her body is only an "unequal advantage" according to an utterly egocentric framework in which another requires authority over her in order to advance his demanded right to satisfaction. Which, in turn, isn't exactly new as masculine, egocentric frameworks go.

    The question of "fairness" in exchange for authority over another person's body isn't even a proper joke.

    • The decision to carry forward with a physically damaging, mind-altering process or not goes to the person whose body it will affect.

    • To reiterate↑: That some man doesn't want to account for his offspring isn't a rational justification for either masculine incompetence or some stupid and selfish privilege thereunto.

    • Follow the bouncy balls:

    → The fact of unintended pregnancy means the male gamete should not have been present.

    → Sperm cells, as such, are not in this case a contribution to a process, but waste irresponsibly left behind.

    Littering does not automatically grant you a proprietary share in anything except legal responsibility for inadequately disposing of your trash.​

    While the father has no legal right to force a mother to continue or stop a pregnancy, at there is no measure of "fairness" to be granted the father by allowing him to opt out of parental responsibility when a mother wishes to continue a pregnancy over his objection, because there is nothing to exchange. You demand a measure of "fairness" for what amounts to putting precisely nothing on the scale: Littering does not automatically grant you a proprietary share over a woman. Full stop.

    Again, it's time for men to stop treating their own sexual inadequacy or fears thereof as something to blame on everybody else.

    And no, I'm not really up to giving the lecture on, "Better and Safer Sustainable Masculine Sexual Gratification", right now. The basic summary, though, is to be a better partner to women or else be the lover unto yourself you always wanted from others. In other words, it's a laborious hot mess as lectures go, and a whole lot of what goes into it a man ought to be able to figure out for himself, anyway.

    • • •​

    Wicked Super Happy Bonus Fun Time: Here's the challenge, and anyone can play.

    1) Find a particular connection between Shel Silverstein and the German heavy metal band Helloween.

    2) Observe a question of scandal according not to what, but why; make what you will of the circumstances describing why.

    3) Once you answer the question of scandal by rejecting scandalization, attend a more general implication of what the particular connection describes.

    4) Now I can skip the the Gratification lecture altogether.​
     
  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    6,757
    A fetus is not an "other".
    To be clear, I'm not "in favour" of abortion. I am in favour of minding my own business by not forcing a woman to do something.
    And you don't even have to make that choice, unless you're a pregnant woman. I can see why she might want to ask somebody for advice but I can't see why you would want to force your advice on her.
     
  15. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    We disagree on that definition.

    Are you willing to fund abortions or give support to those who provide abortions? So don't participate in any efforts that are contrary to your convictions. I fault you not for that.

    The public square is open to all, Bob. If I believe abortion is wrong, shouldn't I say so?
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,573
    It's not - but assault is indeed assault. For example, pro-life activist Robert Dear shot up a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, injuring and killing several people there. That's assault.
     
  17. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    I agree with you. That is assault, and I wouldn't make excuses for such. Why do you think such things happen?
     
  18. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    The problem is that there is no hard and fast definition. When does a fetus become an "other" life? Not before conception. Certainly after birth. But at what point in time can you "define" it as separate from its host?
    If they're funded by taxpayer money, it isn't a matter of choice. I don't want my tax money going to kill little brown people on the other side of the world either but most "pro-lifers" don't seem to have a problem with that.
    It's one thing to say it and another thing to push your politicians to enforce it. You can hate Jews all you want and you can say so in public - but when you authorize your politicians to build extermination camps, you've gone too far.
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,573
    Because people react based on emotion rather than reason. And unscrupulous leaders know that - and pander to that.
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    If that is part of a public healthcare program, then yes. I mean, I fund medical procedures for rapists and murderers in prison (and so do you) - a woman who wants birth control or an abortion is far more deserving of our support than a murderer.
     
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  21. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Why must a living being be separate from its mother to be considered a living being?

    The Pro-Lifers believe it should be a choice.

    So the killing of little brown people on the other side of the world can be blamed on Pro-Lifers?

    What about the authorization of abortion clinics? I believe you would be among the many to protest extermination camps.
     
  22. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    How does reason and emotion figure into abortion?
     
  23. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Does that funding for rapist and murderers include taking life on their behalf?
     

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