Should illegal aliens be given driver's licenses?

the bill's original intent was to prevent usage of dl used as id to board plane and blow the fuck out of it

 

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I have in fact used the word niggardly to describe certain people (not often obviously, but the word is in the set of those the I use naturally under the right cirmcumstances).

IMO, the confustion of alien with "extra-terrestrial alien" is basically the same issue as people who think (incorrectly) that "chauvinist" means the same thing as "male chauvinist."

I can understand that some people might be using a personal, subjective definition, what I don't get is why they berate others who do not share that psubjective opinion.

The uU.S. uses alien, because it's a word that has been used for hundreds of years and has (in context) no ill-will or bad-motive behind it. Despite knnowing that non-insulting definitions of it exist, I perceived redarmy as imputing his own subjective definition to others.

Having an opinion is fine, imputing it to others when you know fuull well that the opinion is not universally shared, is a bit odd.

 

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No.

 

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I think throwing hissy-fits about an ill-considered proposal looks past the real issue. There are millions of undocumented people in this country, and most seem to agree this is a problem. What shall we do, then, to document them?

Ah, right. Round 'em all up and kick 'em out.

Just don't blame the Democrats when your fake Gucci and swap meet Louis gets more expensive.

 

Posters are complaining about the term illegal aliens because they feel it carries a certain connotation. Yes the term does. It carries the connotation of someone who is alien to a particular country and has entered that country illegally. Those who object to the term seem to prefer the term undocumented worker or some form of that term. They also are trying to present a particular view a view of someone who is not here illegally but who has simply failed for some reason to get the proper documentation. They are trying to lessen the severity of the problem by changing the terms used. They are not simply people who have failed to get the proper documentation. They are people who are in the country illegally.

 

severity of the problem
wanna crunch some numbers?
pit your experts against mine?
net loss vs net gain?

you man enough, boy?

their efforts are against people of your ilk who seek to criminalize what is now and has been a civil offense.
an expected counter reaction to your bullshit.

we make money out of these fuckers. what you suggest is treasonous. maximum penalty please

 

Well, the Mexican government is. We can start there if you like. Their economy is propped up by Yankee dollars so they want people to head for the states and wire that money home.

I take it you've never heard of MEChA or La Raza either? They're advocating what's been called reconquista of the territory "taken" by the US between 1835 and 1848.

As for the semantics, immigrant rights advocates (for immigrant see illegal) have long railed against the illegal alien term, and in doing, have lobbied and largely convinced left-leaning politicians and news organizations to adopt the kinder, gentler "undocumented" phraseology. Now, according to them, the only people using what was previously an accepted legal term are "right-wingers" and "racists" or ethnocentrists," which is exactly the sort of mis characterization they wanted to create by changing the term in the first place (In other words, they needed to be able to call certain people these names, so they changed the connotation of the term so they could point to their use of it as justification for calling them those names).

Personally, I received a memorandum last year from Knight-Ridder corporate that strongly suggested that all papers use the undocumented terminology. The suggestion came straight from a group of Latin American journalists who were lobbying their peers to change the language (to change the debate, one can only assume).

 

Till Eulenspiegel

dont get me wrong
i like scapegoating and persecution as much the next guy
my targets however tend to be selective and rather specific

pardon
i have an unfinished thesis eagerly awaiting completion...."passing the torch - racist attitudes in scots-irish culture
indulge, heritage? one drop of the above mentioned ethnicity would do.

much obliged. you re the best!

i must hasten to add, in case you get the wrong idea, some of my best friends are from this ethnic group

 

oh dear
you should have kept on reading, boy

The literal translation of the High German name gives "owl mirror". However, the original Low German is believed to be ul'n Spegel, meaning "wipe the arse

maybe someone's tricked you?

 

People of my ilk.............just what do you mean by that statement?

I am not trying to criminalize what is now and has been a criminal offense. Nor am I trying to turn what has been a legal offense into simply a matter of choice, ie. people choose to enter this country illegally and live here and we should do nothing about it.

You asked what I suggest as the maximum penalty. For a first offense, deportation back to the country from which you illegally came. If you commit a criminal act while here illegally, jail time and then deportation back to the country from which you came.

I also would like those who knowingly employ illegal aliens to be subject to civil penalties and if the employment is egrigious enough criminal penalties. I would like to see benefits meant for citizens denied to illegal aliens unless those benefits are necessary to save their lives, ie. medical treatment or food if they are starving. Those who receive such emergency treatment should subsequent to such treatment be deported to the countries from which they came.

These strictures should apply not only to Mexicans who are the most apt to illegally enter the country but to illegal aliens from any country, Irish, Germans, Nigerians, Canadians, all illegal aliens.

There are structures in place that allow for legal entry into the country. Those who wish to come here shoule use those structures. A nation must be able to control its borders and decide on ingress and egress into and from the country.

 

Haha, "egregious enough"?

"Well Mr. Smith, when we found out you'd let an illegal cut your lawn we were mad, but when we found out you paid him to rake the leaves we knew you'd gone to far."

What benefits are they getting now that we can deny them to with a change of policy?

Also, please note that I'm not trying to be a champion of illegal immigrant's rights, I just object to the intimation that they are single-handedly ruining America.

Agreed.

 

Just give them an "Identity card". That way you know who they are without

authorizing them to drive.

 

I don't think the issue people have with this is that illegal immigrants will be able to drive, I think it's more the fact that they are going to a government department admitting they are here illegally...

 

Gustav, I know all about Till Eulenspiegel including the alternate definition of his name.


jlocke,

Perhaps I was not clear enough and for that I apologize. I am not talking about the homeowner who has someone mow his lawn or rake his leaves. An individual cannot be expected to document the legality of that person. I am talking about Tyson Chicken, large construction firms, etc., businesses that hire illegal aliens because they will work for less than legal citizens.

Examples of benefits illegal aliens presently receive that I would cut out; free, public education, food stamps, housing payments, health care for non-emergencies. These benefits are meant for citizens not for those who are here illegally.

As for the enormity of the problem, any time you have up to twenty million people living in your country illegally you have a problem. The problem lies in the fact that they take jobs that poorer American citizens would take (when illegal aliens were removed from the work force in a meat processing plant there were ten American citizens lined up for each newly available job), they send their money out of the country rather than spending it in the country, they overburden and already overburdened education system. they do the same with the health care system, they often receive welfare benefits to which they are not entitled, they artificially depress wages for entry level and low skill jobs, they bring their gangs with them, (MS13, Netas, Latin Kings, SalvadoransWithPride).

It is not a question of people from different countries coming to the United States. It is a question of people bypassing the laws and rules set up in order to monitor who enters the country.

 

Ahh, I see your point, well with this I do agree.

I'm just not so sure they can get these 'benefits'. I don't have kids so I don't know about public eduction, but I had thought you would have to prove your identity and as previously established, they can only get an drivers license or other form with citizenship. Housing payments and food stamps I would also think you would have to have ID. Also, since there's no public health care, they would have to pay like everyone else.

 

jlocke,

I spent more than three decades as an educator in a primarily Hispanic school district. The policy for schools is, don't ask, don't tell and if you do inadvertantly find out someone is an illegal alien under no circumstances inform the government.

In some states illegal aliens CAN get driver's licenses. I know Hawaii and Utah are two of them. I think there are six others. Illegal aliens often get welfare benefits, at least in the State of New York. They also avail themselves of hospital emergency rooms and health clinics, not for emergency treatment but for everyday health care treatment.

When I go to hospital I pay a premium over and above the cost of my care. The purpose of this premium is to raise money to pay for treatment of those who cannot afford it. While not all these people getting free health care are illegal aliens a good percentage of them are.

 

Well I know in those states you can get a license without having to prove you are a legal citizen, but once you have it those drivers licenses cannot become proof that you are in the country legally.

 

By giving an official government document you are in effect condoning the fact that they entered the country illegally. You are sending a message to other potential illegal aliens that it is okay to illegally enter the United States. Is that really the message you want to send?

 

How about these, then?

Alternate Proposition 1: By giving an official government document [to wife-beaters] you are in effect condoning the fact that they beat their wives. You are sending a message to other potential wife beaters that it is okay to smack women around. Is that really the message you want to send?

or

Alternate Proposition 2: By legally requiring that hospitals render emergency medical care [to illegal aliens] you are in effect condoning the fact that they entered the country illegally. You are sending a message to other potential illegal aliens that it is okay to illegally enter the United States, because they are protected by our laws. Is that really the message you want to send? [This argument, of course could be extended to cover every law that has some benefit to illegals, including the laws against assaulting them (particularly since illegals might stop coming if they could be assaulted with impugnity).]

Giving someone a document that says, in effect "You have demonstrated that you have the skills necessary to drive safely" does not imply "and we therefore condone the illegal acts you may have otherwise committed." The two things are entirely, logically separate.

Most people who take your side seem to be confused because they think of their driver's license as evidence of citizenship (or legal status) since heretofore it's been accepted as such. That use of a license though stems from the fact that states confirm citizenship/legal status prior to issuing license as a matter of course, but that's not the primary purpose of a license. It's there to show that you meet certain minimum standards of skill to the satisfaction of the state, to keep the unsafe drivers off the road.

 

sounds good to me
what is the proposed course of action? implications/methodology/execution

concise please
or link