Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by lightgigantic, Sep 7, 2006.

  1. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941

    What do we make from this quote?
     
  2. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,026
    What was the surrounding context and how did Einstein view religion? We know he was pantheistic and despised the concept of personal gods.

    He saw the universe and the laws of physics as spiritual in essence, and that doesn't imply supernatural in any sense. He felt that those who simply used science without feeling were missing so much.
     
  3. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,130
    atheism is in the life, rather in the heart of man
    -Bacon

    few men are so obstinate in their atheism, that a pressing danger will not compel them to aknowledge a highr power
    -plato
     
  4. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    Cris





    How do you draw the conclusion that the net result derived from pantheism is "feeling"?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2006
  5. Diogenes' Dog Subvert the dominant cliche... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    486
    Scientific knowlege is uninspired without that sense of awe that Einstein felt so keenly. It is also of little help to us in living our lives e.g. morally or when facing death, suffering, change etc. Hence it is lame without religion.

    Religion without science is blind - it cannot tell the real from the unreal, and test it's beliefs. Creationism is a case in point.

    For someone who didn't believe in a personal God, he was unusual in recognising the purpose and value of religion in our collective and personal lives. Lesser men - the atheist inquisitors of the modern age: Dawkins, Dennett, Stenger et. al. would do well to pay heed!
     
  6. Plunkies O&A Pest Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    63
    "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
    — Albert Einstein

    "I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him."
    — Albert Einstein

    "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
    — Albert Einstein
     
  7. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    Interesting - so how do you propose these get reconciled with

    All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.

    Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish.

    God always takes the simplest way.

    God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically.

    God does not play dice

    God may be subtle, but he isn't plain mean.

    etc etc

    In other words it doesn't help illuminate the nature of the quote in question for this thread
     
  8. Plunkies O&A Pest Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    63
    From wikipedia....


    "I came - though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents - to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve.[30]

    I do not think that it is necessarily the case that science and religion are natural opposites. In fact, I think that there is a very close connection between the two. Further, I think that science without religion is lame and, conversely, that religion without science is blind. Both are important and should work hand-in-hand.[31]

    A Jew who sheds his faith along the way, or who even picks up a different one, is still a Jew"



    I think that's your full quote. He didn't believe in the typical definition of God, Christian/Muslim/Jewish, he simply used God as a sort of metaphor for the universe or nature. If you weren't trying to get him to be on your side you'd probably just consider him an atheist.


    "You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own. But it is different from the religion of the naive man.

    For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears; a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for its father, a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation, however deeply it may be tinged with awe.

    But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."
     
  9. Diogenes' Dog Subvert the dominant cliche... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    486
    OH NO!! I get a strong feeling of deja vu. See the thread on Einstein. We've debated all this at length before!

    I think Einstein's quote is the more interesting because he rejected conventional religion, yet still had a strong sense of the value of religious feeling to us as self-aware, experiencing human beings. Hence the quote at the start of this thread.
     
  10. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,936
    Clearly not meant to be taken literally. I fail to see how science is lame if there aren't people around who believe in God or that Jesus is the son of God etc. I am sure that going by his other quotes, he used the word 'religion' to convey a feeling similar to those who were religious in the God sense. And if an awe of structure of the universe deems one religious, then fair enough, I am too. But I think it shows just how things were in those days, and even still today in large part... that to convey a message of inspiration you have to use religious analogies. There is a quote where Einstein emphatically states he finds the notion of a soul rediculous, yet he often used the word 'soul' publically, for the purpose of analogy.

    Is anyone really amazed by an atom and an atom alone? But rather it's the bigger picture that is the fascinating thing in science. To be in awe of one thing in nature is in awe of the whole process... gravity, evolution, matter, space, time... The whole machine working as a whole.
     
  11. spidergoat Give me heat, and then I'll add the wood. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    47,117
    What is religion anyway?
    I think atheistic philosophies could well take the place of it, or just a sense of the wonder and majesty of existence.
     
  12. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    Plunkies


    On the contrary there is scriptural evidence that knowledge of god by surender is catylized through religion as opposed to religious "faith" being the ultimate designation of a person - in other words just as the quote indicates, there is more to being supposedly christian, hindu, etc than placing one's backside within th eparameters of a church or temple respectively

    "You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own. But it is different from the religion of the naive man.

    All this is completely in line with scriptural conclusions - it indicates that people don't actually understand that god is great due to an absence of philosophical foundations


    Once again - no problems from a theistic perspective that understands the limits of morality in approaching the transcendent.
     
  13. Diogenes' Dog Subvert the dominant cliche... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    486
    There are two basic philosophical questions:
    1) What is the nature of existence?
    2) How should we live?

    Science answers the first, but not the second. It doesn't purport to be a guide as to how to live (unless you believe in Eugenics and Social Darwinism!!). In this way, on it's own, and without some sort of "life philosophy" such as religion to inspire us, science is lame.

    I agree. For me, what inspires awe is the seeming intelligence behind it's design. Even a common house-fly seems a marvel of engineering. How much more ingenious is the design of a system to create it (and us) from simple molecules like ammonia and methane! I get the same feeling when I see the Fibonacci sequence of numbers in the petals of a flower. That ‘intelligence’ is evident all around in nature!

    I fear they would not be benign. Atheism does not satisfy the basic human desire for something better. Life is ultimately unjust and in a world of limited resources - power, money, aggression, manipulation and corruption all enable the rich to remain rich and keep the poor in their place. Might makes right in the struggle for existence.

    Religion promises an alternative - 'a kingdom not of this world' (and therefore not attained by the exercise of power, money, aggression etc.). Destroy that hope and only earth based utopias, attained through political revolution can hold out any hope for the disaffected, dienfranchised and angry.

    Put in terms of memes (for Dawkins fans), we are better to selectively culture the more benign resident memes that have evolved with us naturally, than destroy our 'natural flora' and open ourselves to new - potentially virulent pathogenic strains arising.
     
  14. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,936
    Religion is outdated as I think we should know by now how to live in society. The problem with religion is that it's very alienating and is something society could do without having a significant role.

    Speak for yourself...

    I am seeing a bit of a contradiction between those two paragraphs. Religion has no urge for power, money, aggression, manipulation and corruption? I think you are ignoring history and current events.

    I propose that we selectively culture benign memes such as secularism and close off our ties to virulent religious ones.
     
  15. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    DID somebody, mention science and religion??

    well.. it just so happens....


    The Empirical Church of Humanity .
    Founder : Mosheh Thezion radicalman@surfside.net

    First : None of the beliefs of the church are fixed. I.E. the beliefs of the church are forever dependent on the abundant evidence from the sciences, and as such, will be ever evolving with the advancement and development of scientific knowledge. However, as founding principles on which to base our efforts, we take all theories as being the basic forms for proposals, which we as church members may consider in detail.

    Second : Truth, and what a person chooses to believe in, as a whole or in part, is always a decision for the individual to make personally, and it is not the duty of the church to force or make assertive efforts to make people believe in anything other than a God.

    Third : It is the duty of the church to make available all of the evidence as found by the sciences, and all the theoretical proposals developed to explain for all of it, as well as making available all forms of scripture, without bias, and over interpretation.

    Fourth : There must be a standing rule against being fanatical in any way. For if an individual is incapable of calmly arguing and discussing the evidence and scripture in an open forum, where any number of opposing views maybe discussed, then eventually fights and hurt feeling will develop, and such negative behavior benefits no one.

    Fifth : People who chose to join this church do so with the understanding that they need not give up on any specific faith which they may already have, as it is the effort of the church to strengthen ones faith, not change and alter it, and we do so with evidence.

    Sixth : It is the serious open and daily effort of the church to pursue science and do the research, which the individual members of individuals church groups choose to pursue. All in the effort to develop our understanding, and advance our technology, for in doing so we not only increase our understanding of Gods creation, but increase our human potential as living beings… allowing us to manipulate our environment and daily lives.

    Seventh : The church is fundamentally founded on one belief that should be acceptable to people of all faiths and cultures. “Where there is charity and love, God is there!”
    Such that it should be the daily effort of all humanity to, by their will and effort commit acts of charity and love when ever possible, for in doing so we increase the level of good and joy and prosperity in our world, and so, it can be imagined that the level of Gods presence is directly increased, and is thus directly a function of our will to be Godly.

    Eighth : The day to day operations and efforts of focused study will be divided into the 7 days of the week. Where Islam may be studied on Friday, Judaism on Saturday, and Christianity on Sunday, with Metaphysics on Monday, and Hinduism on Tuesday, Buddhism on Wednesday, and perhaps Taoism on Thursday. Of course such schedules will be up to the individual members of individual group churches. However, the study of science and efforts in research are to be incorporated 7 days a week, and 24 hours a day.

    Ninth : The effort to interpret and consider the many varied scriptures will and must always be weighted and considered against the evidence, and it’s proposals. With the understanding that our interpretation of the evidence may in fact be flawed or wrong.

    Tenth : The study of scriptures must always be from the oldest to the newest, as we can interpret the New Testament using the scripture of the Old Testament, but we should not use New Testament scripture to interpret the Old Testament. For as is logical, the newer scripture was inspired by the old and as the old was written long before the new, its inspiration must of come from still earlier scriptures etc. And so, when we endeavor to study scripture it is only reasonable that we approach all the abundant scripture in the same pattern in which it was written. From oldest to newest…

    Eleventh : In the daily study of scriptures, it is only logical that we endeavor to take notes and make summaries, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, where by we seek to see patterns in the discussion, and can thus be sure of our proposed interpretations. It is thus the duty of those who run the church efforts to make these notes and summaries, which shall be critically considered by members who come to listen, and argue.

    Twelfth : The church is divided into areas of effort. First in proportion to the available funds and man power, free housing and food for the homeless, under the conditions that such downtrodden persons turn not to a religion, but to a faith in themselves. A faith, which tells each of us that, we are capable of being so much more than we may presently be. When one human falls, humanity in brother-hood should be there to help them up again. Then a discussion hall of needed size, then a library/ laboratory for member use.

    Thirteen : The laboratory efforts are to be taken in the most serious of views, as the potential for danger and accidental stupidity is possible. Therefore, only adults of sound mind shall be given access to the lab facilities, at the church leaders discretion.

    Fourteen : On each of the seven days, an open forum of discussion will be held on the desired topic or form of scripture and or faith. Church leaders will lecture on notes and summaries made, yet it will and must be an open forum, to be peacefully and calmly organized by the church leaders, where by any member who wishes to speak shall and must be granted a time to speak as is needed, within a time limit to allow for arguments.

    Fifteen : If the resources and manpower are available then another church area of effort will be made as an entire school, or possibly as a rehabilitation program, available to all people who would enjoy and make use of a supplementary education in science and the pursuit of serious research. Or who are in need of serious rehabilitation.

    Sixteen : Individuals who might join the brotherhood area of the church, as someone in need, maybe given employment directly from the church, as commissioned salesmen of the many booklets developed. When possible as farmers and laborers in the many humanitarian efforts which the church may pursue, as a whole, or in part as individual groups and persons. However, volunteerism is one with the concepts of a brother-hood of humanity, where in, the rewards come from our accomplishments, not profits.

    Seventeen : It is the effort of the church leaders to develop further works for publication, being ideally, focused analysis of the many varied scriptures in relation to the abundant evidence of the sciences.

    Eighteen : No chemistry laboratory experiments are to be permitted without the strict supervision of church leaders and the advice of professional chemists, as chemistry is not something to just play around with.

    Nineteen : Every church must strive to establish the most comprehensive library possible for use as reference material for its branch members, in their daily pursuit of understanding nature and Gods creation, and so science.
    This library should be open to all, yet books should never be checked out.

    Twenty : In order to facilitate the survival of the church, all people who would enter the doors to make use of the church and forums, should donate at least one dollar per visit. Children and the poor being of course exempt.

    Twenty one : While the church does not promote a specific faith as scripture, it does with an assertive effort strive to convert atheists, for the main argument of the un-believers is regarding the evidence and how they believe that it does not support a belief in a God. And so, it is the duty of the church leaders to take the steps to calmly argue with those atheists who may be open minded enough to make an honest effort to hear our proposals.
    Proposals based fundamentally in evidence, described by theory.!

    Twenty two : One of the founding beliefs of the church, is that God as presented in scripture doesn’t need or demand our worship, God asks us to obey. To obey as children should obey their parent. And it is the bulk of scripture, which serves as the arguments for why individuals should obey. As should be obvious, if an individual lives a life of sin, then no amount of worship and prayer can make up for it. The only way to make up for sins is by serious acts of charity and love. Acts which may improve a souls overall quality.

    Twenty three : One of the founding beliefs of the church is that it is not enough to worship God and Jesus, instead we as human beings should make it our daily effort to be Godly, to be like Jesus, and build Gods kingdom now, in our lifetime. Why wait? Calm, rational, adult thinking gives humankind a potential limited only by our imagination.


    -MT http://theempiricalchurch.blogspot.com/
     
  16. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    The empirical church of humanity has a concocted ring about it

    none of its education is intrinsically theistic nor scientific - on the other hand it seems excessively legislative
     
  17. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    THAT is only because you havent taken the time to learn the basis of my personal belief system, which is founded in empirical evidense.

    but to do so, will require several hours of personal effort, in the study of cosmology.

    when you do so, you would realise the relavance of science in scripture.

    feel free to email me with any questions you have.

    -MT
     
  18. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,127
    Mosheh

    I'm going to go out on a limb here, is the Empirical Church of Humanity a church of one? Ie. You?
     
  19. baumgarten fuck the man Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,611
    Religion can't want any of those things. Ideas don't have desires. People, on the other hand...
     
  20. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,127
    "Science without religion is lame"

    This could be true, if taken from the context that religion is full of fantasy and myth, providing us with magical creations of galaxies and planets, adventurous tales of seas spreading open, pillars of fire and every other imaginable plague to mankind.

    Science, on the other hand, is merely the boring, tiresome understanding of how things work.

    In that respect, science could be considered lame without religion.

    "Religion without science is blind"

    Of course, remove any understanding of how things work and all your left with is the blind leading the blind with blind faith.
     

Share This Page