# SciContest! Why can't matter be made of photons?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by BenTheMan, Aug 11, 2008.

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1. ### Steve100O͓͍̯̬̯̙͈̟̥̳̩͒̆̿ͬ̑̀̓̿͋ͬ ̙̳ͅ ̫̪̳͔OValued Senior Member

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That doesn't mean the matter created is made up of photons though.

3. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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It can, however.

Take other examples of other systems made up of other systems. It's not unheard of. We have glueballs, made up of gluon luxon particles. The positronium consists of an electron and a positron in momentum inside the particle itself.

The same goes for the picture of particles with rest mass. They consist of energy: photon energy to be precise. We know this, because of the matter-antimatter process of releasing their fundamental componants. Two gamma rays of energy.

5. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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I don't mind posting the original confirmation that photons where made to create rest matter.

7. ### Steve100O͓͍̯̬̯̙͈̟̥̳̩͒̆̿ͬ̑̀̓̿͋ͬ ̙̳ͅ ̫̪̳͔OValued Senior Member

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I don't doubt that.

Using your logic we could say photons are made of matter, as we can put an electron and a positron together to make photons.

8. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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No. Not at all.

Photons constitute the process of providing an energy that fluxes into a state of rest mass. The rest mass is not particularily equivalant to photons, unless a rest mass and anti-rest mass come together, and reduces/or disturbs the inner momentum energy free.

9. ### Steve100O͓͍̯̬̯̙͈̟̥̳̩͒̆̿ͬ̑̀̓̿͋ͬ ̙̳ͅ ̫̪̳͔OValued Senior Member

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No. Not at all.

e- and e+ constitute the process of providing masses that flux into a state of energy. The energy is not particularily equivalant to e- and e+, unless a photon and a photon come together, and reduces/or disturbs the inner mass free.

10. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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Mass can't be particularily made of photons (in the sense we measure a photon), because a photon alone does not have the same qualities as a single electron. We can't even talk about two photons (if my memory serves me correctly, because of the equation E=Mc^2.)

The idea instead is that when a positron and an electron come together, energy is lost from the inner momentum through the equivalance equation. This is not an unknown phenom. When quarks come together, they also loose properties of their mass, which is converted into gluon energy.

11. ### Diode-ManAwesome User TitleRegistered Senior Member

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I tend to agree only with unified wave theory...

One theory suggests its particles. Another suggests its waves... and still another suggests its wave particles.

I think its waves which make "particle fields" and in turn, particles that move in waves.

Reality is made of energy waves.... and energy is the ability to do work, rather than a material or substance. Electrons have energy and do work, but are not "energy."

12. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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Very interesting BenTheMan; good thread; I predict there will be no winner because fact is all matter is made of photons. I've spent the last 20 years trying to get physicists to re-think this. This is some evidence that photons comprise all mass.

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13. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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A photon has exactly the qualities of an electron when it is the right frequency and curled into a resonant pattern. This software does it. This library of functions is needed to compile it.

14. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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When you know what mass actually is, the construct of matter is obvious. Mass is electromagnetic change. The measure of the amount of mass is m = hv/cc . The only non-constant in there is electromagnetic change.

The Lagrangian (sp) breaks down because you can't put mass in it twice. Mass is already counted for in the changing fields.

15. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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BenTheMan; I once offered \$15000 for the proof you're asking for here. I kept that offer published in Discover for two years. All entries were peer reviewed by Physicists. There was no winner.

People who suspected that "The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field" included Maxwell, Schrodinger, Einstein, Lorentz, Poincare, and many others.

Solving that riddle is going to make someone fameous. I can't solve it, but I can know that it is solvable. If I can get this image to load; this is the neutron to scale in units of shell four. Shell four is the size of one pixel.

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16. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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We see particles come out of high-energy photon fields all the time. That's what happens downstream of electron-positron collisions.

17. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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When you consider that a photon consists of two points of saturated electric and magnetic amplitude surrounded by fields of electric and magnetic amplitude that diminish with distance away from the points, it all makes sense. It is neither a particle or a wave, it is both all the time.

The points look like particles, the surrounding fields look like waves.

18. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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Except that you can't show how to do it, as is easily shown with the opposite.
As shown by Professor Willis Thompson

19. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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There's not just some evidence, but incontravertible proof that matter can be made out of photons. We have observed such a phenomena.

20. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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Hi Reiku; I'm gathering all the evidence I can find so I can keep the idea alive. So if you know of some I've missed please point me toward it

21. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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Yes. I don't have the link, but i will post the paper written here, under the known evidence i hold no copy-right of the material posted. Here you go.

OUT OF PURE LIGHT, PHYSICISTS CREATE PARTICLES OF MATTER
September 16, 1997
A team of 20 physicists from four institutions has literally made something from nothing, creating particles of matter from ordinary light for the first time. The experiment was carried out at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (SLAC) by scientists and students from the University of Rochester, Princeton University, the University of Tennessee, and Stanford. The team reported the work in the Sept. 1 issue of Physical Review Letters.
Scientists have long been able to convert matter to energy; the most spectacular example is a nuclear explosion, where a small amount of matter creates tremendous energy. Now physicists have succeeded in doing the opposite: converting energy in the form of light into matter -- in this experiment, electrons and their anti-matter equivalent, positrons.
Converting energy into matter isn't completely new to physicists. When they smash together particles like protons and anti-protons in high-energy accelerator experiments, the initial particles are destroyed and release a fleeting burst of energy. Sometimes this energy burst contains very short-lived packets of light known as "virtual photons" which go on to form new particles. In this experiment scientists observed for the first time the creation of particles from real photons, packets of light that scientists can observe directly in the laboratory.
Physicists accomplished the feat by dumping an incredible amount of power -- nearly as much as it takes to run the entire nation but lasting only for a tiny fraction of a second -- into an area less than one billionth of a square centimeter, which is far smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. They used high-energy electrons traveling near the speed of light, produced by SLAC's two-mile-long accelerator, and photons from a powerful, "tabletop terawatt" glass laser developed at Rochester's Laboratory for Laser Energetics. The laser unleashed a tiny but powerful sliver of light lasting about one trillionth of a second (one picosecond) -- just half a millimeter long. Packed into this sliver were more than two billion billion photons.
The team synchronized the two beams and sent the electrons head-on into the photons. Occasionally an electron barreled into a photon with immense energy, "like a speeding Mack truck colliding with a ping pong ball," says physicist Adrian Melissinos of the University of Rochester. That knocked the photon backward with such tremendous energy that it collided with several of the densely packed photons behind it and combined with them, creating an electron and a positron. In a series of experiments lasting several months the team studied thousands of collisions, leading to the production of more than 100 positrons.
The energy-to-matter conversion was made possible by the incredibly strong electromagnetic fields that the photon-photon collisions produced. Similar conditions are found only rarely in the universe; neutron stars, for instance, have incredibly strong magnetic fields, and some scientists believe that their surfaces are home to the same kind of light-to-matter interactions the team observed. This experiment marks the first time scientists have been able to create such strong fields using laser beams.
By conducting experiments like this scientists test the principles of quantum electrodynamics (QED) in fields so strong that the vacuum "boils" into pairs of electrons and positrons. The scientists say the work could also have applications in designing new particle accelerators.
Spokesmen for the experiment, funded by the U.S. Department of Energy, are Kirk McDonald, professor of physics at Princeton, and Melissinos, professor of physics at Rochester. Also taking part in the experiment were William Bugg, Steve Berridge, Konstantin Shmakov and Achim Weidemann at Tennessee; David Burke, Clive Field, Glenn Horton-Smith, James Spencer and Dieter Walz at SLAC; Christian Bula and Eric Prebys at Princeton; and seven other physicists from Rochester, including Associate Professor David Meyerhofer; graduate students Thomas Koffas, David Reis, Stephen Boege, and Theofilos Kotseroglou; research associate Charles Bamber; and engineer Wolfram Ragg.
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CONTACT: Tom Rickey, (716) 275-7954.

22. ### Mike HonchoShut up and calculateRegistered Senior Member

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I hate that this was posted by you before me.
"Matter" is a property of energy. So is mass. All forces are merely exchanges of energy. Matter forms when wave energies combine into "standing" waves. The properties of matter (from mass to chemical properties) are harmonies exuded when multiple aspects of these waves interact in certain ways. Exactly like chords in music.
And yes I'm obviously a layman. My only education is I can feel it.

23. ### Mike HonchoShut up and calculateRegistered Senior Member

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BTW
Vern is the Man now.
I dare you to test him.