HA!!! THIS is the point. You don't know what evidence IS. The word "prove" is, again, meaningless to you. Prove 1 + 1 = 2 Go on Joe. Now, as for QE3. QE3 would be "evidence" OF the Depression many Americans are being FORCED to live through. Simple enough. Oh Oh Hoo Hoo Hooooo not for Joe, for Joe if we have QE3 and that's a sign of a "healthy economy". We don't have QE3 and you think that's a sign of a "healthy economy". *Beep Beep* 010010101011.m.y.n.a.m.e.i.s.j.o.e.0.010110001.. *Beep Beep* Economy is good. Government is good. Freewill is bad. Freedom is evil. Must do as told. *Beep Beep Moo Beep* QE3 = healthy economy. No QE3 = healthy economy. Must bow to the Federal Reserve Machine Gods. *Beep Moo Moo* *Moo Moo Beep* Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If you recall yourself correctly, YOU still think the Federal Reserve has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH the Depression we're in. Oh, but then you also think the Federal Reserve is what keeps the economy on the up and up. For Joe, Up is Up AND Down. So which is it Joe? Is the Federal Reserve responsible for the Depression and therefor should be closed OR is the Federal Reserve too incompetent to know what's happening in the economy AND SHOULD BE CLOSED? Or both. I say both. Joe, I know this is going to take a small iota of thinking, but, I was referring to the HUMAN CONDITION. You're already referring to "The Great Recession" as if it's still not happening right here and now. For you it's already passed into Myth. See, that's what people do. They refer to things like "World War II" or "The Renaissance" because it helps us take complicated processes and simplify them to the point of being meaningless. That's what we do. It makes us feel we understand the world around us. That things make sense. We do this because if not we feel fear - fear at unknowing. YOU are doing it already?!?! HAAAA!!!! You must be shitting your pants Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Digging holes and filling them in may give 8 million people a "job", it's not going to turn the economy around. The Federal Reserve went ahead and without ANY Congressional oversight dumped $7 Trillion dollars onto Middle America to pay out it's buddies on WallStreet. That is immoral Joe. What don't you get? :bugeye: Yeah, I understand, you're scared like a little girl wetting your panties and so you gave up all your freedoms and rights to some douches at the Federal Reserve and in BIG government. BUT you don't have the moral right to do that for anyone other than yourself. Simple enough??? IOWs you don't get to "vote" rape is moral. You may legalize it, but it will remain immoral. We will see. I expect 120 years of CONTINUING slow decent into hell before we get real change. That will involve a few wars along the way.
I think you have proven my point. First, we are not in a depression much to the chagrin of conservatives and people who don't want to call themselves conservatives. And as for your comments on QE3, it's gibberish. You are making stuff up again Michael. You are making stuff up again Michael. As I said before and per the National Bureau of Economic Research and the data, we are not in a depression - one of them minor details again. So how can the Federal Reserve be responsible for something that has not occurred and does not exist? We have words with specific meanings. And we are not in a recession. If you want to describe another condition, then do so. But do not use words/terms incorrectly. The human condition, if by that you mean how well consumers feel about the economy, the Consumer Sentiment Index is up to over 70 from a low of just over 20 during the apex of the Great Recession. So clearly consumers are feeling much better today than they were a few years ago. Unemployment is down by 20% from its apex in 2009. Those are good things Michael, verifiable with real data. Now you are back to this nonsense. No one is advocating same. It's an inane distraction. Well that is simply not true. One, The Federal Reserve is always under the direct oversight of Congress. It is audited by Congress annually and the Chairman of the Fed reports to congress twice each year. Two, the Federal Reserve did not dump 7 trillion dollars into middle America to pay it's Wall Street buddies. It is not immoral because it didn't happen - one of them minor details again Michael. Remember words have real meanings Michael. And politics does not give you license to invent your own special lexicon. Aside from the ad hominem, the Federal Reserve predated my birth. So I and the majority of Americans have not given up anything to the Fed. You still have not answered the questions I put to you previously Michael. If government sends a violent criminal to jail is that immoral because government is making the criminal do something he doesn't want to do? Please answer the questions previously put to you Michael.
This would have been funnier if you had done it on purpose Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Most idiots in the World were full of praise and happy as hell ... while Greenspan drove us off the edge of a cliff! Just because there's jobs and people are 'happy' does not mean the economy is 'doing well'. Digging holes will reduce unemployment, and maybe people are 'happy' to have the job - it's still unproductive and will reduce the prosperity each time a shelve hits the dirt. What's so hard to understand here? Spending money isn't in and of itself 'productive' and does not 'in and of itself' produce a prosperous economy. Our economy has been going into the toilet for 40+ years - it's only now becoming evident. But don't worry, it's going to become more clearer as we move forward.
As for the 'Human Condition' I'm referring to the way in which humans reduce complex events into simple phases so they don't have to think too much about the event and can go on with life 'feeling' like they understand what the hell just happened when in reality they haven't a clue. Examples include: - The Italian Renaissance - The Collapse of the Roman Empire - World War II - The Great Depression - 9/11 - The Great Recession - The Patriot Act
Yes we see the simple solution extensively in Republican/conservative politics. Is there a point there somewhere? Now how that relates to the Renaissance, fall of the Roman Empire, et al. is a mystery. Let me remind you Michael it is you who have failed to respond to the challenges I have repeatedly put to you to come up with a cogent argument to support your positions. To date, you have failed to do so. Disconnected thoughts, and inflammatory rhetoric and name calling is not a substitute for reason evidenced based thinking.
Funnier? Gibberish is not funny Michael. Is there a point here - a point that you can prove? What you would rather people be unhappy? No one has said all is well Michael. There are still problems with the global economy. There are still problems with the US economy. But things are getting better. And there is REAL DATA to support those facts. Now if you disagree, make a cogent argument with REAL EVIDENCE. Now you are back to your infatuation with digging holes and your unique and inconsistent definition of what is and what is and what is not productive. No one is advocating spending money frivolously - exception being the conservative movement who want to give billions to the wealthy to sit on. A stimulus package increases demand in an economy. Giving money to billionaires to line their bank accounts does not significantly increase demand. If that is the case Michael, then you should be able to prove it with evidence and an cogent argument. You should have 40 years of evidence. Making wild unsupported commentary, is not a rational argument Michael.
That's utter nonsense. The reason we use these references is not that we, unlike you, do not understand these things, nor that we are trying to oversimplify complex phenomena. Rather it is that these things are complex phenomena which all have common elements and themes that do tie them together, and the reference is there because it would be tremendously time consuming to explain the phenomenon in full every time we wished to discuss some particular subelement of it. For example, imagine if you wanted to make a reference to Boccaccio's Decameron, but were forced to re-explain the entirety of the Italian Renaissance in order to do so, even to an audience who had heard it before (because anything less than the full and elaborated description would be forbidden). Your comment is as silly as asserting that by using a person's name, people are "reducing a complex individual into a simple name so that they don't have to think too much about the person and can go on with life 'feeling' like they understand who the hell this individual is, when in reality they haven't a clue." In fact, how dare you oversimplify "the Fed" by using that shorthand term for a complex organization as a way of avoiding a truer understanding of what they are and what they do. But I guess that label let's you 'feel' like you understand it, when you haven't a clue.
exactly ron paul's ideas as well as the whole of the austrian school of thought only works if you ignore basic human nature.
The Austrian School never works, never has, never will. If by work you mean to yield actionable predictive models for economic policy and profit. Unfortunately, Austrianism has in recent times been used to manipulate the uninformed for profit and political gain.
Let me make sure I have your position correctly, when Joe references "The Great Recession" as a past even that the quick thinking of the Great Leaders at the Federal Reserve not only averted disaster BUT the economy is on the mend and it's all candies and lollies ahead. :bugeye: What was the point I was trying to make to Joe? He's already referring the "The Great Recession" as if it's some long forgotten past event Historians already speak about (in hushed tones) as their wide-eyed pupils cower behind economic tomes safe in the knowledge the monetary Gods at the Federal Reserve keep them safe at night. It'd be like talking about The Great Iceberg WHILE the Titanic sinks into the god damn ocean! The Federal Government pulls a few numbers out of their arse and suddenly things are on the mend. Give me a god damn break. The economy may not be in official recession due to the massive wasteful immoral credit that was lended to the financial institutions - but that hasn't changed the underlying fundamental structural problems in our society. The phrase "The Great Recession" cons people not only into thinking the Depression is over, but that the chicken sacrificed at the Federal Reserve worked. I noticed it was being used by some douche writing in NewsWeek as well. So, why don't you tell me what the phrase "The Great Recession" means to Cavalier. What are the implications for such a phrase. WHY do we coin such phases. IS it appropriate to use such a phrase at this stage in the economic transition Americans are living through? Is it meaningful? Truthful? Deceitful? Helpful? Harmful?
We've already went over this AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yeah, I know, I know: Michael, that guy plays hard and loose with the facts. Ah, no Joe, he's using the standard metrics back when the government was interested in informing the Citizens not fooling them. Which brings us back to QE3 and Joe's standard of evidence and living in la la land. - If we have QE3, Joe says it's 'evidence' of a strong economy. - If we don't have QE3, says it's 'evidence' of a strong economy. See how YOUR mind works Joe? Up is Up AND DOWN. Don't worry, you, pjdude1219, Cavalier, Captain Kremmen and pretty much most of America are in the driving seat. Sure, you're driving us into a wall and have been for 80 years, but whatever - keep telling yourself things are getting better. But, try and remember that just because you're getting used to homeless washing your windshield at the corner for a bit of change - doesn't not mean the economy is getting better. Also, IF you have the mental aptitude, try to understand that what you mother taught you growing up was true: Steal IS immoral. Democracy doesn't change morality. Slavery was immoral when it was legal and is immoral now. Rape is immoral - doesn't matter who votes what. It is immoral. Initiation of force against other people is immoral. You can draw lines on a map, call them countries, call the people who live on the other side of these imaginary lines Terrorists or Communists or Fascist, Palestinians, what have you: initiating force against them is immoral. It's what makes murder, rape, slavery, etc... immoral. As such: Income Tax is immoral. Of course I don't expect anyone here to understand that. You've been raised to think Slavery, Rape and Murder is moral. Why would logic change your way of thinking? It wouldn't.
It is a past event. You are lying again Michael. No one ever said, "it's all candies and lollies ahead.". In fact, the words to describe our current situation were, "a period of economic uncertianty". And a few of the uncertianties were spelled out for you (e.g. Europe, and US political instability). When you have to misrepresent your position to make it sound credbile, maybe there is something wrong with your position. It is a past event. Are we dealing with some lingering effects, certianly. But that does not change the fact, that The Great Recession is now in the past for the United States. As has been pointed out to you on numerous occassions Michael we have a lexicion with word meanings spelled out in detail. Just because you need to redefine those words in an attempt to justify your political positions, it does not mean that those who use the words correctly are being misleading. The government does not pull the numbers out of the aether. They compile them the same way they have been for decades through good times and bad. Those numbers just do not support your contentions. That is why you have to redefine words; ignore facts; create ad hominem; straw man and a plethora of many other fallacious arguments in an attempt to justifiy your rather extreme poltical platform.
The Federal Reserve gave $7 TRILLION dollars in credit to the banks without any Congressional oversight at all. Just a few fat arse crooked Billionaires sitting in the room bailing out their Billionaire buddies. But, don't worry, even Slavery ended. Sure, it took a lot of death and pain but humanity always progresses and people seem to move towards rational thought and hence morality even if at a snails pace. 120 years
No Joe - it never was a recession. It's a full blown economic depression. ` Lets go back to your medical analogy. Imagine a person has a gangrenous leg that WILL KILL the patient. There is no way to save the patient. So, two doctors look down. One says we shoot him up with painkillers. Does so and walks away. While walking away the patient smiles and says thanks (thinking he's saved because he feels so good). The doctor says: Yup it was 'The Great Gangrene". As if because the patient 'feels' better he IS better. That's asinine. It does nothing to cure the disease or to prevent the eventual death of the patient. Who slowly, but happily, drops over dead. We'll refer to this type of medicine as Krugmanomics. It's what runs the world. A second doctor says, sorry son, I'm cutting your leg off. Now. The patient screams in agony as his leg is sawed off on the spot. Later, when still alive and missing a leg the patient sneers at the doctor calling him an SOB for cutting off his leg and calls his Lawyer. This type of medicine we'll refer to as Paulonmics. Soon, this will the what used to run the world. People don't like it. They like "Free FREE Free". But guess what? There is no "Free". The world has real limits and markets must be used to effectively and fairly distribute those limited resources in a fair and efficient way. So, yeah, when you step over the bum on the street or skirt the family of 5 pan handling - thank yourselves for putting them there. Or I know, better yet, pretend they don't exist. Oooo I know: Blame Republicans. Or maybe by then you'll be blaming Obama. Whomever. Just don't blame yourselves. In short: Dumping Trillions and Trillions and Trillions of dollars and paying people to dig holes or buy useless Chinese made shit at Walmart may make it LOOK like the economy is doing well and therefor your numbers make you think you can say with confidence "The Great Recession" is over. But the truth is nearly 60% of our economy is run off the Financial sector and we are not producing enough to actually be "on the mend". It's going to take massive structural reform. Lots of bankers will be next to those bums on the street before it's said and done. I personally can't wait. Or War. That's what they do when their incompetence is appallingly obvious. One BIG War. Lets see if immoral America falls for it again. My guess is YES, they will. I hope they call a draft to boot. That would be interesting to say the least.
Tell it to Bloomberg Joe: The Federal Reserve's 'breathtaking' $7.7 trillion bank bailout It should be noted that we would have NO IDEA that this occurred if it weren't for Bloomberg taking their complaint to court and winning a law suite. But, that's how you like it isn't it Joe? The Cattle are there to be led around by the nose. You wouldn't want to "spook" the herd by letting them know what the Farmer's been up to. See, that the difference between you and I. I believe in open honest government with honest money. You believe in lies and deception and leading the people around by the nose (for their own good of course). And the funny things is, you all worry the "rich" are going to get one over on you. I know a lot of rich people. They all pay next to nothing in income tax. Income Tax hits middle class America the hardest of all. Most of the wealthy people I know use investments and properties and all sorts of ways to pay pretty much zero or even get a return check if they loose a bit of money. So, keep hoping Obama gives two shits about you - but I promise he doesn't. Politicians only care about their careers and how much they can milk out of their local Cattle (you). Sad to see you all lining up at the gate: me me me me oh pluuuleease milk me first me me Moo Moo Moo.... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You think you can play their game and win. Pfffff..... go back to your pen the Farmer's got a hose and suction-cup with your name on it.
Yeah, yeah, you know that the data you are using is the result of mixing and matching disperate information to produce the data you want to see. But that doesn't stop you does it? No you are misrepresenting things again. If the Fed does another round of QE it will because the economy needs it, the economy would be slowing. What you don't seem to understand Michael is that the economy is not static, it changes from day to day and from hour to hour. More empty rhetoric Michael, how about some reasoned discourse? How about answering the questions that have been previously put to you about your rhetoric and postions?
That was the way the government USED to report the data prior to 1980 when it became politically uncomfortable to continue doing so. The Cattle were getting restless. Take the lated 'official' unemployment figures. It went from 8.2 to 8.1 ... Ohhh but they didn't count the 300,000 Americans who AGAIN simply STOPPED looking because they can't find a freaken job. Lost hope is now a political tool in the game of numbers. Numbers that you use to confidentaly state The Great Recession. If you want to refer to the 2008-09 period then that's fine. But to paint it with the brush of myth ALREADY is insulting to the 12 MILLION Americans out of work and 50 MILLION Americans looking for fulltime work. Yeah, working at McDonalds 4 days a month and the government counts THAT as employed. We're talking University graduates taking jobs at McDonalds. You think Austrian economics doesn't work. Keep thinking it when more government 'services' are cut as the debt (aka your future labor that was sold off to the Chinese Communist Government to spend as they see fit) is paid back with interest. See, that's Keynesian Economics. Even they know there is a limit. Even Krugman (who incidentally wants another $2 Trillion more dumped into the economy - even thought according to Joe the Great Recession Ended [funny that]) knows there is a limit. He's calling 30 more basis points as nearing that end. Sorry to pop your bubble Krugman, we're not Japanese. We're not going to bow and accept it. There will be hell let loose in the streets when those services are cut - and they will be cut.
