Reality is mathematics / Mathematics is reality ?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Write4U, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    It's not really necessary to go into it to that degree. I'll grant that Antonsen is simply using a simple diagram to make a point, and the ersatz-hyperbola is close enough for a PowerPoint show. There's no need to rub more salt into the wound.

    The reason I mentioned it now is because Arfa Brane was beginning to ask about actual hyperbolic components, such as asymptotes. That geometric shape has no asymptotes, and it is not a continuous function. In fact, it's not a function at all. A hyperbola is a continuous object, extending to infinity. That diagram cannot. It has discrete values (No, you can't simply add more lines to it. I could go into this in further detail if you have doubts).

    Now, Antonsen never talked about those things, so I can't hang that on him, which is why it wasn't necessary to get pedantic about it.

    But calling it a parabola - as opposed to a hyperbola - that is a pure right/wrong error.
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Then why name it? Why name it wrong?

    Answer: because that's what pseudoscience does. Uses the trappings of science - scientific word salad - so it sounds all sciency to those not familiar with science.

    Okay, I'll grant that. If you'll grant that a video with Antonsen was a bad choice in the credibility department.

    A curve is a set of short line segments. So what?
     
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  5. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    And I propose that the Universe has only colour properties

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  7. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    No it isn't an hyperbola, it's closer to a parabola. In fact that construction has been known for quite a while. So sorry, but you're wrong.
    He isn't the only one, Wolfram Mathworld does too; and I found something by a dude called Somerville who published the same construction in 1906 (it may well predate him too)

    How to prove that the construction doesn't have non-parallel asymptotes? Or prove the asymptotes are parallel? The asymptotes would tell you what kind of curve it is, but how to define them in terms of the lines in the construction?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You haven't proved it wrong yet. You have only shown a set of cones cut and sliced in different ways. Not anywhere near the simple example provided .
    No it wasn't. Parabola is a generic name . All other descriptions are variations of a parabola.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabola

    Are we going to argue about what Antonsen described by its generic name? Have we resolved this scientific obstacle?
    Now we show the superficial understanding of the power of mathematics .

    Your blase attitude may need some refreshing.
    The Beauty and Power of Mathematics | William Tavernetti


    Sufficiently scienci? Or too simple for your taste?

    Note how mathematics can reduce several differently described phenomena by a single equation. That is the power of mathematics and that is what Tegmark is proposing.
    Seems that Tavernetti is of like mind as Tegmark.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Good start. But the universe does not consist only of wave functions in the color spectrum.

    There are a few more equations which are equally powerful. Tegmark estimates that, apart from some 33 relative values, only a handfull of constants are necessary to explain all the mathematical functions in the universe.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Does in my Universe

    You must live in a aberration of our true Universe

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  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Only when I wear my pink mood glasses. My sunglasses are gray so it just darkens the natural colors.
    But I have seen infra-red. Even took pictures. An interesting mathematical phenomenon is that the wave length of infra-red forces an adjustment in focus from all other colors.

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    ...............................

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    Left: tree photographed in the near infrared range. Right same tree in the visible part of the spectrum.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_photography

    My dream is one day to see Ultra-violet..........

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  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    As I have already indicated our Universe does not have mathematics

    I do understand our scientists are studying the possibility mathematics might exist in a theoretical manner as a step down from our colour representation of our Universe

    What a lowering of our standards that would be

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  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    A parabola extends without limit, asymptotically approaching parallel lines. Those lines are not parallel; they are perpendicular. The lines will never approach parallel. It is definitely a hyperbola.

    A rectangular hyperbola (where the asymptotes are at right angles - as in the diagrams) has an eccentricity of exactly root 2.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbola#Rectangular_hyperbola

    A parabola has an eccentricity of exactly 1.

    The right-angled axes are showing you the asymptotes that the hyperbola is approaching. They will never be parallel. They will extend at right angles without limit.
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You're on a completely wrong path. The parabola does not emerge as a plane. The saddle is the 2 D plane. The parabola emerges as an empty space formation in the curvature of the plane. But it is not a plane itself. It is a paraboloid shape formed by the plane.

    No one is trying to draw a parabola! It emerges as a secondary effect from the drawing of straight lines in a particular manner.

    That is the magical part. How do you get a curve from drawing straight lines?
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Au contraire, A mathematical universe allows for all natural phenomena that have any value at all to become expressed in some manner, including colors.

    Colors have mathematical values and can therefore be expressed in nature. Something has to have a mathematical value (potential) for it to be able to become a pattern or part of a pattern.
    No mathematically quantifiable value, no potential ability for expression in reality.
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That is also a demonstration that the universe is not doing mathematics - all those phenomena are empirically different, only via human mathematics are they simplified, abstracted, described, and thereby perceived, via some single equation.
    Colors do not exist other than in perception by some describing entity. Colors are description, not nature - the map, not the territory.
    Nonsense. That's substrate - perception is a higher level pattern.
    Please. Good faith?
    Perception is passive in the obvious sense intended - it does not impose anything on the perceived. If it did, it would not be a perception but an imposition, a creation, an alteration, etc.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  17. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    "Those lines" are also not asymptotes for "that curve". The lines are part of the construction which doesn't appear to include any asymptotes (?). Which doesn't mean of course, that they don't exist.
     
  18. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    You will have to explain what you mean by "perception is passive". In my book, the word passive, applied to some system, means not responsive. That is, no energy is absorbed or transformed, it simply passes through and the system doesn't change.

    It's a kind of vague term, therefore, because everything responds in some way, to energy. "Passive response" is oxymoronic.
    Moreover, perception is a process, how is a process passive?
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I am not talking perceptions. I am talking expressed "values". OK?
     
  20. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Uh. No one said it did.


    Antonsen is.

    As before: a curve is merely an infinite number of straight line segments.

    What's so magical?
     
  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    True. I said that.

    Nonetheless, the shape will never approach parallel. It will approach perpendicular.
     
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    That is ... not what passive means.

    Active systems act, passive systems react.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Antonsen did.
    No he did not. He drew a right angle and some straigt lines connecting points on each leg.
    No that's wrong. A true curve does not have any straight lines. Each point of the line is offset from the previous point. There are no connecting points forming a straight line in a curve. If Antonsen had connected every point on the legs, the emergent result would have been a true curve.
    If you can't "see" that, I can't help you.
     

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