Real story behind Columbine

Thankyou Fraggle for shining a glaring light on the problem. If 'psychotic little shits' like the columbine killers don't kill themselves along with a few dozen others when they are 17 or 18 you can be pretty sure the rest of us will be compilcit giving them the kind of power that GB and SH and all the other psychotic big shits out there but with armies or nuclear weapons.

I don't worry or lose any sleep over the columbine killers, their peers or families but I'm pretty sure the next ones are out there with their psychotic little plans..... you know to blow up a mall, or a football stadium, or a country.

Whether or not such people can be stopped is debatable but I'm pretty sure that interventions can make a difference.

Do you get it yet Lucysnow?

Bullies, it's all their fault.

Created or born?



Control? There isn't any. There is only a timely intervention.

 

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For one, you said:

For two, I said:

There is no need to actually tell someone 'You are worthless, you are evil'. You can simply tell them 'You are a cold blooded psychotic too dead inside to be of 'any value' and send across the same message.



Moreover, just because someone blows their brains out, doesn't automatically mean he thinks he is worthless. There are people who think they are too good for this world, so they off themselves.

I don't understand? You seem to have missed a word there in the underlined part.

 

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No, read again:

Secondly, the connection between external hardship and internal suffering is not automatic nor necessary, nor always socially accepted, and is relative to a specific culture.

Which is the real problem behind Columbine. People cannot agree upon what the normal, healthy connection between an external hardship and internal suffering should be.

If someone beats you up, how sad should you be, if at all? What degree of personal affectation is still healthy, normal, and where is the line between under-sensitive and over-sensitive?


Moreover, hardship is also relative, depending on a society and its culture and economy (although the crisis is now levelling this out).
For example, somewhere in Africa, having one lightbulb in your home is not poverty, but it is poverty for US standards. Generally, those Africans are not as disturbed by having one lightbulb in their home, as Americans generally are if they have only one lightbulb in their home.
Or food: Some people think it's wealth to be able to eat once a day. Some other people would think this is poverty.


I think you are underestimating the importance of existential angst. Sure, existential angst seems superflous and idle in comparison to living in a landfill.

But satisfying a person's needs for bodily comfort does in no way guarantee that he will be happy or 'normal'. Which is what we can see in affluent societies all the time: people are relatively wealthy, they have food to eat - but as far as having proper spiritual nourishment is concerned, the West is pretty much a waste land.

 

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Interventions like what?

Putting them in juvenile correctional facilities?
Telling them to practice loving-kindness?

If I remember correctly, one of the Columbine killers had, shortly before the killings, completed an anger management course ...

 

educating parents to recognise signs of psychotic little shits
educating teachers to recognise signs of psychotic little shits
educating students to recognise signs of pyschotic little shits
educating parents as to how psychotic little shits are created (you know like aside from being just being bornded)
educating teachers as to how psychotic little shits are created
educating young people as to how they are behaving like psychotic little shits
ensuring children don't get their hands on semi-automatic weapons cos for sure that might help in their endeavours to become psychotic little shits


Where the hell do you think terms like 'psychotic' come from?


I mean columbine is the one and only time this sort of thing has happened in America right?

And after the fact I keep hearing "oh yeah we were really concerned about him/her/them and their anger/bullying/nihilism".

Start with educating your frigging selves!

Bleating that they were just bullies doesn't cut it with me.

 

There are four main symptoms associated with a psychotic episode:

hallucinations,
delusions,
confused and disturbed thoughts, and
a lack of insight and self-awareness.
Hallucinations
A hallucination is when you think you perceive something that does not exist in reality. Hallucinations can occur in all five of your senses as outlined below.

Sight - someone with psychosis may see colours and shapes, or imaginary people, or animals.
Sounds - someone with psychosis may hear voices that are angry, unpleasant or sarcastic.
Touch - a common psychotic hallucination is that insects are crawling on the skin.
Smell - usually a strange, or unpleasant, smell.
Taste - some people with psychosis have complained of having a constant unpleasant taste in their mouth.
Delusion
A delusion is having an unshakable belief in something that is implausible, bizarre or obviously untrue. There are two common types of psychotic delusion that are described below.

Paranoid delusion

A person with psychosis will often believe that an individual or organisation is making plans to hurt or kill them, which in turn can lead to unusual behaviour. For example, a person with psychosis may refuse to be in the same room as a mobile phone because they believe they are actually mind-control devices.

Delusions of grandeur

A person with psychosis may have delusions of grandeur where they believe that they have some imaginary power, or authority. For example, they may think they are president of a country, or that they have the power to bring people back from the dead.

Confusion of thought
People with psychosis often have disturbed, confused and disrupted patterns of thought. Signs of this include:

their speech may be rapid and constant,
the content of their speech appears random; they may switch from one topic to another in mid-sentence, and
their train of thought may suddenly stop, resulting in an abrupt pause in conversation or activity.
Lack of insight
People who are experiencing a psychotic episode often totally unaware that their behaviour is in any way strange, or that the delusions or hallucinations that they are experiencing could be imaginary.

They may be capable of recognising delusional or bizarre behaviour in others, but lack the self-awareness to recognise it themself. A person with psychosis who is being treated in a psychiatric ward will often complain that all of their fellow patients are mentally ill while they are perfectly normal.

source: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Psychosis/Pages/Symptoms.aspx



So any of this SOUND FAMILIAR bearing in mind columbine?

I would particularly be interested in hearing from the moderator on this one. You know this being a science site and all.....:shrug:

 

Cowards the lot of you

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Educating them all - and then what?

But there is no unified theory on how 'psychotic little shits are created'!

Sure. But what could have been done about that anger/bullying/nihilism?

Unless people are offered a truly meaningful way to live, killings like those at Columbine and all other crime will continue to happen.
As long as we are expected to be happy with working, eating, sleeping, mating, defending and philosophical speculation, we are not going to be happy, and people are going to shoot people.

About what exactly? The meaning of life?

I never said that.

 

Haha. I figured it would.
People tend to do whatever they want without the thought of repercussions. It's then when I feel that someone has done that, especially if it affects me, that I will go out after them.

A few months ago, someone cut me off on the interstate, almost causing me to have a wreck. They were on their cell phone.
I got in front of them, grabbed a handfull of pennies, chucked them out the window and saw them hit their windshield and saw the look on their face. They beeped their horn and flashed their high beams and got right on my ass.
If I had been in my beater, I would have locked up the brakes so she could rear end me and have her ins. company pay for the damages.
But I was in the Subaru and just stomped the gas and outran them. I got out of their sight and stopped at the next exit (should they have called the cops). I figured the cops would have shown up at my house sometime after that (if she got my tag #) but they never did.
Even if they had, it would have been their word against mine. And I would have asked the cops if the other driver had any proof of that.
Nothing came of it.
but the moral of the story with me is, don't start nothin. Won't be nothin...because you never know what people are capable of.

 

Here is a hypothetical:

What if instead of indiscriminativly shooting everyone, they would have picked and chosen only those whom bullied them, mostly jocks? I bet the response to the whole affair would be quiet different...

The problem with these shooters that they always kill the wrong people....

 

Well who decides worth? They decided at the point they DECIDED to kill others and themselves that they were of no value? Its an assessment they made about LIFE their life and that of others. Am I to suppose people who behave like this are of value to anyone? I would have had more sympathy for them if they were simply suicides but even suicides are making the statement that they are no longer of any value. Evil is another thing entirely . Evil is for vinent price films. I never called them evil . I never said they were 'worthless' they made their lives worthless, worthless was their assessment of life itself.

To kill yourself because you think you are too good for the world?

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Never heard of that one! Its either grief or cowardice.

Signal: I think you are underestimating the importance of existential angst. Sure, existential angst seems superflous and idle in comparison to living in a landfill.

Existential angst is not an excuse for murder. Existential angst is besides the point.


SNIFFY: Do you get it yet Lucysnow? Bullies, it's all their fault. Created or born?

I say born. They were worse than bullies they were cold hearted murderers, if you want to excuse them based on some notion of sympathy that's your business but you cannot expect others to waste their sentiments on them. I get that you believe there should be solutions. At present there are no solutions. You need someone to blame other than the parties because then you would feel there is a solution, there would be an easily assessed answer, culpability assigned. Life isn't always like that. Yes, the murders of others and themselves is their fault. Even if they had bad parents the actions they took were their decsions and theirs alone.

 

Signal: Unless people are offered a truly meaningful way to live, killings like those at Columbine and all other crime will continue to happen.
As lon

You cannot offer someone a 'meaningful way of life' lifes meaning is something we all have to discover for ourselves, create for ourselves, these two didnt think it worth striving for.

FRAGGLE: Yet I'm certain that none of us, nor anyone any of us knows personally, perhaps out to three or four degrees of separation, would ever go so far as to do serious harm to another human being, much less kill them. Some people are just wired wrong, or perhaps they're still wired for the Stone Age.

I agree with you.

Fraggel: Geeze who wouldn't feel at least a little sympathy for someone who crawled out of a concentration camp and turned into a mass murderer?

I wouldn't. Its an explanation not a cause for sympathy. There are many who have suffered historical abuse who havent gone on to behave as predators. The abused becoming the abuser has an explanation but I its no cause for confusion when faced with an abuser. Whatever the childhood reasons its no way to vibe in the world, or like you said many who went through these camps do not hold up the notion that they are now entitled to abuse others based on a bad history. Look at all those people on talk shows who excuse themselves in front of an audience trying to garner sympathy for whatever behaviour based on their bad childhoods, it fosters a culture of brushing off responsibility, not taking ownership of ones problems and living in eternal victimhood. It also fosters an attitude where no one is able to point the finger and say 'this is simply wrong no matter what they hell you were through', then rights and needs of the abuser begins to override the rights and needs of the abused

 

Well there you go then. Keep your guns and keep your bullies. Just don't be surprised when those bullies get younger and younger and younger and have an inclination to spray their classmates with bullets. Or keep their heads down long enough to worm their way into government. Or join the police force or the armed forces. I'm mean they're just bullies in an axis of evil type way, right? No patterns of behaviour, no indicators, just plain evil psychotic little shits from the get go.

Shall we all raise a drink to the next random mass shooting?

'There but for the grace of god, go I.'

clink

 

Was that before you just gave up and gave in to the bullies? Or bought the party line?

Anyone listening? I mean if you try to get beyond 'well deys wuz just bullies' what do you get? Practically a Nazi sympathiser, sniffy is.

See posts 85 and 86 for a start.

Don't ask for solutions. Just tighten your grip on your gun. Give one to your son and daughter and then when the big bully comes and points a gun in their faces they can have a good old fashioned style shoot out and hopefully the best shot will win! I just hope your kids weren't born psychotic or something and get a bit above themselves........get me?

When did it become that, then? Teenagers killing teenagers a 'risk management issue'? Guess it just doesn't matter at all then, eh? Unless you've got your kid sitting next to some simmering psychotic little shit or worse, in-between two of them. Ah, but I keep forgetting that the obvious solution then is to have them all armed to the teeth and as long as they're driving BMWs they'll be OK!

Looks like you got that there drink drive problem solved Frag. Throw $100 000at it and there you go. Next!

Like I said this one is a bit too complex for us all so let's just file under the Baron's 'shit happens' and be a little extra vigilant when we next step into the road.

Switches on the TV news and has a beer.....

 

Via link provided by Gustav in Anger Prelude thread:

People are covering up everything that went wrong and I want those lessons out there,” says Judy Brown. “They're doing studies, they're getting profiles. Everybody's trying to get programs going and what we can do. Well guess what? All the signs were there. You know what the lessons are? Do your job.”

.......

In February of '99, Dylan Klebold turned in a story he wrote about an assassin in a black trench coat who shoots down students and bombs the city. "The man unloadeone of the pistols across the fronts of [the] four innocents," Klebold wrote. "The…streetlights caused a visible reflection off of the droplets of blood…I understood his actions."

Klebold's teacher later called it "the most vicious story she'd ever read," and voiced her concerns about it to Klebold's parents and his school counselor. But no school official ever looked into the matter, and it ended there. It was two months before the shootings.

 

Ohhhhh sniffy, how does getting totally e-bitchslapped feel?
old age and wisdom > youth and inexperience