Rationalizing simulation theory

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by ZoddyDoz, May 5, 2017.

  1. ZoddyDoz Registered Member

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    I've made the video below, and provided the transcript if you are unable to watch it.




    Fleas cannot even remotely imagine what is outside the realm of your carpet, your pets and you.

    Just like fleas exist in their current state, they’re unaware of the world outside where they live. They are unaware of all the advances humans have made and all that exists in the known universe, just as we are are capable of being unaware what exists outside the boundaries of what we can perceive.

    In that scenario we may exist in a smaller universe that is a part of a larger one, such as fleas can be unaware that there are other planets.

    Or that we may exist in a simulation, because that’s also beyond the boundaries of what we have technology or capabilities to comprehend.

    Beyond the universe that it’s taken us so long to know so little about (in proportion to all that may exist), we could exist on a microscopic scale to larger beings, who might also be unable to perceive us.

    Outside of any speculation, just with what you can see and feel for yourself - Do you believe that as a society now, we will continue improving technology as far as computers and AI and robotics?

    If so, consider society will get to a point where we can create a technology that can simulate life, and artificial intelligence which learns and continues developing.

    Give that artificial intelligence enough time and you will get to creatures like us, that are completely incapable of perceiving any existence outside of the realm of the simulation that they exist in. When that is possible, we will also have created a simulation which can create a simulation of themselves.

    P.S. - (I was inspired to make this as I was recently dealing with a small flea problem my dog picked up while at a local dog park, which led me to a cycle of research)
     
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  3. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    So, it's a small world after all? Dang. There's that stupid song stuck in my head again!
     
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  5. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    The fleas might lack visceral evidence of even their own limited, local environment. Should their sensory processing be too primitive to yield intuitions or qualitative showings of any kind. Yet the outward body behavior of one of the parasites would still be guided via the microscopic operations of its nervous system. (The insect's awareness would thereby be demoted from internal experiences to just that successful behavior of its body alone; a philosophical zombie).

    Another way to put it: If what "perception" corresponds to in terms of existence is nothing but another biological complex of interacting components, then that mechanistic version of receiving and analyzing / organizing information and responding to it (in contrast to the simple, brute experience of such) still causally gets the job of consciousness done. Without the "superfluous" addition of those private and inter-subjective manifestations which we're familiar with. (Considering the latter to be an emergent knowledge of be-ing rather than the manner or substance of being itself -- so as to avoid panpsychism, idealism, etc).

    Similarly, if the "minds" of simulated humans / creatures reduce down to the artificial circuitry of microscopic electronic switches that are devoid of any deliberate engineering intent for phenomenal properties to supervene upon their changing patterns... Then they could be p-zombies like the aforementioned fleas. Their sensations, feelings, personal thoughts (intellect) would lack exhibited evidence of their occurrence, as well as their virtual world which would otherwise have been featured in such. Validation of their simulated existence would come from observers at the level which created them -- but only if those witnesses oppositely did have experiences.

    Philosophical zombies usually carry the onus of constantly pretending or speaking as if they do have shown content in their sensations and thoughts, when they actually do not. But their dishonesty is set aside here to better point out the difficulty in confirming their own be-ing. The problem with a (zombie) virtual inhabitant alternatively declaring that "I have confirmed the existence of myself and my realm by formulaic proof instead of by qualitative showing" is that the existence itself of such an inference or reasoning would go unsubstantiated. Because it like everything else would not be "given" as an object of manifestation slash intuition (whether in the context of visual, audile, olfactive, tactile, gustatory, or other alien / unknown modes of experience).
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
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  7. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    I think most people think artificial simulation must require computers but it might be done without them. If the universe is 4 dimensional, there may be 4D beings who created & control what we perceive as the universe & it could be as artificial to them as a computer simulation would be to us. Their inexplicable mucking about may be the basis for god belief.
    If we someday have very good simulations, that will be evidence that we could be in 1 but if we cannot do it, that does not mean we are not in a simulation.
    With Star Trek & other stories with artificial simulations, I always think when they exit a simulation, how can they possibly know for certain they are out of the simulation?

    <>
     
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  8. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    You know, if Minkowski's 4D spacetime had explained something like conservation of energy at at deeper level (and it doesn't), I would have been onboard with it even more than I was when I was much younger and infinitely more gullible.

    But adding higher dimensions identical in most respects to lower ones without a better motivation than "LOOK! I can do math in higher dimensions!) is not a motivation. Likewise, parallel universes. Conservation of energy exists in ONE universe. THIS universe, and oh, by the way, to FABRICATE other universes and higher dimensions out of whole cloth is going to require them to be populated with something we actually care about other than manipulating numbers there. Oh, I don't know, maybe ENERGY would be a nice thing to have there, particularly if anyone expects anything in a higher dimension to have any impact or communication with ENERGY that is in THIS UNIVERSE.

    Having complex numbers to explain potential energy is totally cool, but Hilbert space? Come on. Total loser. Just like Euclidean Relativity would be. There's no coordinate system in inertialess space, and nowhere to plant or nail an origin to either. The Lorentz roadbed has inertia, and it works if you can do all of your measurements INFINITELY FAST. And then Minkowski trashes the idea of infinitely fast before you can blink. Absolute time exists. Absolute space is a fantasy.

    Fleas are very small and very fast. Maybe they actually know more about that scale than we do.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  9. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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  10. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Brain in a vat?

    To much watching The Matrix

    ? does not sound quite correct

    Do you mean
    • We don't know what we don't know (self evident) or
    • We are capable of being aware of boundaries to our knowledge while at the same time capable of knowing something may exist outside of our boundaries of knowledge (self evident)?
    On a personal level I can recall reading a comic book in which the main story line was

    the Earth existed as a speck on the leg of a flea who existed on the back of a dog

    So that puts that idea at least 60 years ago and I suspect further back

    On what scale are you measuring

    so long
    and so little?

    And how have you decided we

    know so little as a proportion

    of our knowledge since as has been stated

    we don't know what we don't know?

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  11. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Oh no. Please, no more Donald Rumsfeld (unknown unknowns) philosophy.

    Yes, my first thought was "brain in a vat" as well. It's good to consider metacognitive limitations sometimes. I have a whole spiel about finite minds using symbols to try and grasp the infinite. Same idea.
     
  12. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Since we don't know the percentage of the knowledge we know

    set against the total amount of knowledge out there

    (if there is even a total) we cannot say

    we know if we know a little or a lot

    Same applies to the time line

    It appears our accumulation of knowledge is accelerating

    My thoughts go to

    will the acceleration slow and almost plateau and only move up slowly?

    Since we don't know how much knowledge there is left to chase

    it makes it impossible to set a time line for when we can expect to know everything

    Which means we have no idea if we are within a few years or millennium of knowing it all

    I discount the few posters in this and other such forums

    who either say they know everything or post a link

    to someone who makes the same claim

    If only the thousands of paranormal ideas were real

    perhaps we would be closer to knowing everything

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  13. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Disinformation is increasing exponentially as well. With Trump as president, it is much faster of course, because of his keen interest in using fabrications and conspiracies to eventually replace facts.

    His supporters no doubt believe this will level the playing field between them and those who have actually scaled a learning curve or two. Makes perfect sense. Push back. It's a long way down.
     
  14. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not to worried about disinformation

    Or alternative facts since disinformation generally gets found out fairly quick and alternative facts just don't work

    By the by how are the 3 investigations going?

    Looking into Trumps ties with Russia looks like a job for life

    Trump
    We haven't found any evidence yet but we know it exist we just haven't found it and it (the evidence) is why he is President

    Sounds like they are looking for god

    god
    We haven't found any evidence yet but we know it exist we just haven't found it and it (the evidence) is why he is god

    OMG you don't think.......?

    Could it be........?

    Looks different from his paintings

    Na just coincidence he has come to save us

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  15. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    For once, Trump did the right thing, even if it was for all the wrong reasons.
    Comey was conflicted for some time. He's a good man, and this does not reflect badly on him at all.

    It will be a chilly day in hell the next time the FBI briefs Trump about ANY investigation into Trump or his administration, EXACTLY AS IT SHOULD BE.

    Sounds like something he might have said at his graduation address at Liberty University. The advice he gave them was very bad: "Be an outsider."

    I'd be very circumspect about hiring anyone from Liberty university for any job outside of the clergy. Certainly their science credentials are going to be lacking some considerable depth.
     
  16. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    I saw part of his address to the students

    I'm guessing he didn't tell them

    "I'm only here for the religious vote"

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  17. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    We do not know how much we do not know but I'm guessing it's more than 30,000 times what we do know.

    <>
     
  18. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    What ever amount is guessed at I would contend it remains constant

    This phenomenon is the result of every question we find answers to results in a host of further queries

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  19. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    .

    But they were there before we found them.

    <>
     
  20. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    True

    Why did I miss that?

    Grrrrr to myself

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  21. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    From ZoddyDoz Post 1
    This & other speculations in Post 1 are nonsense.

    The Matrix is interesting SciFi & perhaps should be considered fantasy instead of SciFi.​

    I doubt that any technological culture would be capable of creating such a simulation. I am in my late 80's & have memories of my past as well as knowledge gained through 16 years of schooling.

    I consider myself unique in that there is no exact copy of me, but not unique in having memories of my past. There is no reason for me to believe that the humans I encounter & billions of others do not have similar memories. Not all will have 16 years of schooling, but many will.

    Even if such a simulation were possible, why would any technological culture expend resources to create such a simulation?

    Everything in the mindscape of an individual is not necessarily possible. The above is one of the not possible thoughts.
     
  22. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    BTW: The Matrix series has a basic flaw which occurs at least twice.

    Virtual activities have effects on the reality level.​
     

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