Rationalism of the Western mind

It's interesting that we often try to use the wrong tool to get the answers we seek. The rational mind, with its exquisitely evolved capability for logic and reason, is fantastic for finding food and shelter and increasing wealth. It's a hindrance for revealing what you know.

My point is that the Western mind is trained from day one to be the ultimate dualistic machine; and so it is very hard for us to break out of that mold. Maybe that's the reason psychedelic drugs were so remarkable here in the West in the Sixties, and caused such a vast convulsion in the culture. They ripped away the carefully constructed facade of rationalism and allowed a glimmer of the enormous potential energies that lie beyond.

Interesting that when Richard Alpert allowed a self-aware Hindu (later to become his spiritual guide) to use LSD, his response was more or less... "so what?". It points out that in the West, we are so reliant on the rationalist view that it takes a major shift in conciousness (a ethogenic drug, an extreme emotional event, a death, etc.) to break us out far enough to even begin to address the questions of "what we are" and "what we know".

 

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Watcher,


Wonderful topic!

Consequent rationalism is one of those things I really really hate. It is an inductive fraud of the most hideous kind, since it considers itself as valid and reliant, while at the same time saying that its basis is "empirical evidence" which depends on observation, and observation can be faulty. Thus, whatever you build on this evidence (which can be faulty), can also be faulty. -- But rationalists, even though they admit it is true, like to dismiss this consequence, as it just doesn't fit their scheme.

 

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So what exactly are you trying to say? That we become irrational?


Yeah that'll help us a lot...

 

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not 'irrational', but nonrational, which could also be defined as wonder. when the mouth hangs open in ecstatic wonder droolingly
yu see, this is what i see happening with emphasis on so-called rationality, inevitable irraionality happens. this insight i am sure was seen by ancinet philosophical Taosim. I.e that whenever a movement reaches an extreme--unconscious of its dynamic poar relionship, or better, complimentarity with its opposite, then it can turn into its opposite.
thus we have now a severely rationalistic-heavy culture which acts irrationally...war on abc, running round making everything worse. all kinds of confusion

NON rationality is got from ecstatic exploration via hallucinogens. this is the easiest route

i am fresh from such an excursion. having just had a holiday in Devon, and on the Wednesday, Tripping with two people by the sea

We looked at the stars. walked through woods, say fairy dust colming from the lighted torch....'FAIRY DUST!!" the rationalist screams....'yeah'

later we all happened upon a TV docu about life in Israel under the conflict. any rationalist observing my behaviour would have concluded i was a l;ughing, hysteical, slobbering fool/imbecile. but i was seeing directly through those dripping with tears eyes.
i was seeing nonrationally. 'rationality' wasn't binding me. i SAw that as simple as eggs. IF those people dont stop clinging to their beliefs-which-divide themselves from each other, then the horrible atmoshere will inevitably continue. it is so.

 

not 'irrational', but nonrational,

You mean irrational.

which could also be defined as wonder.

How does wonder help us more than rationality does?
when the mouth hangs open in ecstatic wonder droolingly

This benefits us how?

yu see, this is what i see happening with emphasis on so-called rationality, inevitable irraionality happens. this insight i am sure was seen by ancinet philosophical Taosim. I.e that whenever a movement reaches an extreme--unconscious of its dynamic poar relionship, or better, complimentarity with its opposite, then it can turn into its opposite.
thus we have now a severely rationalistic-heavy culture which acts irrationally...war on abc, running round making everything worse. all kinds of confusion

Please, try English next time. I can't understand what you are trying to say.

NON rationality is got from ecstatic exploration via hallucinogens. this is the easiest route

.....so you're saying we should all just takes drugs, and forget everything we know? Good plan...

i am fresh from such an excursion. having just had a holiday in Devon, and on the Wednesday, Tripping with two people by the sea

...

We looked at the stars. walked through woods, say fairy dust colming from the lighted torch....'FAIRY DUST!!" the rationalist screams....'yeah'

Fairy...dust?

later we all happened upon a TV docu about life in Israel under the conflict. any rationalist observing my behaviour would have concluded i was a l;ughing, hysteical, slobbering fool/imbecile. but i was seeing directly through those dripping with tears eyes.

English?
i was seeing nonrationally.

Irrationally

'rationality' wasn't binding me.

You mean you were being stupid.

i SAw that as simple as eggs.

Huh?

IF those people dont stop clinging to their beliefs-which-divide themselves from each other, then the horrible atmoshere will inevitably continue. it is so.

What horrible atmosphere? And who are you to say it is so? You don't have a very good grip of the language, why should ANYTHING you say be so?



Please try to learn English before you post next time.

 

look, dude or girl, you seem awfully lazy and sarcastic, ANd rude. i have better things to do with my time than try and communicate important insights with people like yourself who assume that showing disrespect will not have its effect

do you understand THAt english?

 

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

This may be another side-effect of rational imperialism: losing the ability to see things without a reasonable explanation responsibly. It's Spock having to take hallucogenics in order to show emotion. Overcorrection leads to oversteering and overreacting. Ironically, a reason-addict will start losing (or suppressing) the ability to be reasonable by any other standards than the empirical. If reason were really so imminent, people would have lost their ability to deal with life. Fortunately, matter over mind is just as hard to maintain as mind over matter.

Is drugs the only way a scientist can relate to his wife and children? No. Is empirical evidence his only reason for relating to them? No. If he is neither completely rational nor irrational, what is he?

I would say: human.

 

It's so much, much more than that! If reason is your world, then everything else might seem about as meaningful as giggling at butterflies - but that's only possible if you deny of a lot of the assumptions your life already operates on.

That denial usually comes in the form of some sort of justification, like "everybody does it, and whether I agree with them or not, I'm part of that society". That's like saying you only believe raping is wrong because everybody around you thinks so, but otherwise... who knows? This happens under extreme circumstances, like war. But some things are easier to justify under less controversial circumstances - like stealing. If you're broke and hungry, you might actually feel you have a case. Rationally, you might. Morally, you don't. See the conflict?

Neither was anything else, am I right? If drugs were a valid escape from rational behaviour, then date rape could be defensible, and drunk driving could be excusible. The "drugs made me do it" mentality is just as morally irresponisble as "my DNA is programmed to make me do it".

 

Jenyar, i am curious....have you had experience with psilocybin mushrooms?

i ask this because it is difficult to communicate in words about the experiences you may have after ingesting them. Your reponses seem to suggest to me you haven't, but i will listen to you

whn i say 'nonrationality' i am not suggesting rationality doesn't EXIST any more. of COURSe it does......
look, you have to understand that -as Heisenberg said--we are 'suspended in language".....yeah?
the way we use language, abstracting 'terms' like 'rationality' 'feelings' etcect. is abstracting isn't it. the trouble is is when we conduse that semantic overlay with reality. when we assume there is a 'thing' which is 'rationality'
rather rationality as we are brought up with its emphasis in our so-called educational institutions, BINDs us in the limits of what 'it' says is 'true' 'sane' and so on
so in that context then "NONrationality' means not losing the mode of rationality, but rather not being under its spell. a spell which can dull the best of us

 

I've never smoked a cigarette, not to mention mushrooms. I prefer steinpilser and natural highs. I appreciate your understanding.

I am in full agreement with Heisenberg, but did he suggest we escape it? Should babies jump their cradle, or old men discard their walking sticks? They're there for a reason. Sure, don't make it the extent of your world, but why try to transcend it? Our so-called educational institutions are so-called because we have realized the merits of having an education. It's good that we take note of our sources and assumptions, and I can understand that you feel you have to go out of your mind to escape their influence, but those "bindings" are what binds people to each other, for better or for worse. The perspective you get on truth while being high is still available without drugs, and neither do you need drugs to appreciate it. It's an excuse to, but not a good one.

If you don't wish to be under the spell of something, take control of it. Face it and overcome it. If reality dulls you, show some responsibility and be creative. Use your imagination, don't look for an inferior substitute.

 

I can assure you it is not an 'inferior substitute" my friend, by ANY means...haha
in fact, what are hallcuinogens have enthralled our species from time immemorial, and most myth and religion has been created as a reult of our ancestors obviously experimenting with them

what went wrong is when that was prohibited and/or forgotten about, and then we got left with just empty dry symbolism

regarding education being a binding agent 'for good or worse'....well, for worse i am afriad. it is an hoorendous indoctrination factory that dulls the mindbody.
most people are confomists robots leading dull meaningless lives.
what hallucinogenic experience does is shakes you out of that dull meaningless conformity....even if for a little while. then it is up to you ti integrate the deep insights you may have

you know, really, your judging of hallucinogens even before any have passed you lips, is a little like talking about onion soup having never tasted it.....a 'little'...VERY V E R Y little

 

But you're not, right? Is marriage not an institution? And who taught you to read and write?

Heroin is addictive after first use. And that's just the "normal" dose. If you have ever tried to help someone restore some resemblence of a life who was caught up in drugs, you might have a different opinion of what is dull and meaningless.

 

no i'm not. which doesn't mean i am 'content' have 'arrived' am 'enlightened' exploring is nonending. but if you knew me i am sure you wouldn't think me conformist

about drugs. yes i am very familiar with heroin. not from personal use--as i've never tried it--but from working at a needle exchange for two years. i got to know a lot of users of heroin, crack cocaine etc in a frinedly way

please dont confuse the hallucinogens with narcotics. they are not the same at all. in fact properly used they can even help resolve habitual use of narcotics and alcohol (i will leave you to research this for yourself)

again i say, to try and dismiss hallucinogenic experience as 'inferior' or anything withOUT having put your toe in the water--metaphorically speakin--is like trying to talk about sex never having tried it. supefluous.

i am not trying to do a superior number on you here. i would be if i claimed i was 'enlightened' and was a guru. THEN it is on you to follow me, and maybe just maybe one day you might get my insight. all of that is a scam in my opinion. but with hallucinogens, ANYone can make the effort to al least try them to see for themselves.
If you are fearfel they could be addiictive, then all i can recommend is you do the research. i am convinced you will find out they are not

Admittedly some people DO abuse them. i put this down to ignorance regarding their beneficial potential, and their very ancient history. So the discussing about all of that is meaningful in that context.
Our culture is extremely commodity based, and the youth fall into the pattern of that. So all that has to be understood

the important thing is also what YOU bring to the hallucinogenic experience. it is like a meeting...a flowering

 

Here's the thing: everybody's different. You're not more different because you realize you are or act that way. It's like Gary Larson's penguin shouting, "I gotta be me!" out of a monotonous crowd of other penguins. It's a good attitude.

No, I'm sure it provides a superior (at least comparably) experience. My point is that your life doesn't have to be so dull in comparison. That's why the Hindu above could say "so what?" That's all I'm saying. I think I life filled with wonder and imagination beats a fleeting (not to mention expensive and possibly illegal) high. I appreciate the sentiment that it "taps into history" - but that's just another justification. As you say: it's about what you bring to the experience. Isn't that true about life in general? Hallucogenics are narrow-minded and desensitizing in my opinion, because they force life to seem boring in comparison; a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's a form of escapism, and nothing wrong with that, but if it's so different than the rest of your life, maybe you're missing more than you realize. Remember, the chemicals and receptors that allow you to have a hullucogenic experience are still there without the shrooms. Maybe they exist for something more lasting?

I'm going river-rafting this weekend at the Victoria Falls. It's bigger than the American Falls and the Horseshoe Falls (at Niagara Falls) put together. Hallucogenics is like a kid offering me his licked lollipop in comparison. I'm just politely declining the offer. It's the same reason I don't smoke.

 

Jenyar says: "Hallucinogenics are narrow-minded and desensitizing in my opinion, because they force life to seem boring in comparison; a self-fulfilling prophecy."

well, are you talking for me or you. it can't be you caus you admit you've never tried any hallucnogens. And i know for sure it aint me, because my experience with hallucinogens has greatly enriched my life experience, in fact my first LSD sessions when 15 OPENED me up to Nature, which i now realize had been dulled by shooling and life in general--as dictated by media etc.

so this debate could go round in circles jenyar. if you had had hallucinogenic experience and said that, then it would be a differnt debate. but it is absurd for you to assume that without the experience. surely you see that..?

I actually see us a CONTINUUM. a dynamic be-ing. one moment you can feel up, then down, then something else. you could have a cup of tea and get a subtle shift of mood. go for a walk. go river rafting, etc etc. hallucinogenic experience really is inspiration inot Deepening. it would be silly to want that experience all of the time. no experience is all of the time. but insights are got from deep experiences. THAt is the point

 

Life.

I see what you mean. But how deep should an experience be for experience to include all of life? How deep should you cut before you start to feel?

 

Jenyar asks: "I see what you mean. But how deep should an experience be for experience to include ALL of life? How deep should you cut before you start to feel?

whist pondering your question, two images came to me--making love to a lover, and the self-harming behaviour (becoming more and more common amongst the youth, especially young girls) of cutting.

When making love to your lover, i am assuming you are wanting a deep experience. To as 'how deep' is eally putting a coneptual limit on deepness. there is no 'how' as such, but 'going with'. so deepness is un-fathomable. there is no bottom (excuse the pun)....the more you go with the flow, the more intense is climax. and then that climating ecstatic release could be said to 'include all life', for at that instance your limiting sense of yourself, your social persona ("you") disappears or expands (however you want to term it). orgasm has been called "the little death".
I am using this analogy, because i experience the hallucinogenic experience as ecstatic, and thus erotic, sensual. For now--in the experience--your whole organism is open and receptive to Nature. So it is orgiastic. Of course how you APPROACH this experience--set&setting--is vitally important, which is why i previously said that it is what YOU bring to the experience. not just lying back and seeing the experience as 'entertaining' you. it is a meeting. a making love, and there is no limits to the deepness you may feel

as for the 'cutting'. I have also been extremely interested in the phenomenon of self-cutting--though i haven't dont it myself. i feel what it includes is this:
that the person feels SO overwhlemed with the all-pervasive mixed emotions resulting from complex intermingling problems that the act of cutting. focussing on parts of the body, FOCUS the pain to A site. AND many say that doing that MAKES them feel. makes them feel alive.
Of course they may end up covered in scars. And this problem defeats many people even having trained in that 'field'. They might suggest 'anti-depressants' or whatnot. For in this culture emotions are feared. mainly because they are indicators about the REAL state of things. NOT what the cultural paradigm dictates as to how things should be, or really are.
When you take hallucinogens, you can see right through that paradigm. what you do with that insight depends on how deep you wanna go

 

Sex is both the fulfilment of being and the essence of it, so it's a good analogy. I have heard from people who cut themselves that it's a pain they can deal with. It substitutes a pain or a reality they don't know how to deal with, one that's intangible.

Death is a reality we have to face, not escape. But like sex, when it becomes an act of escapism or purely pleasure, it ceases to be relevant - it loses it's roots in reality. It becomes a fantasy, and fantasies have no limits. I'm just cautioning you: beware of your fantasies, that they don't water down reality. Drugs are a cut into your spiritual arm as well. The feed a desire that has other purposes. Hallucogenics have their uses, but they are ultimately only subsititutes.

 

one could say this about 'extreme sports'.....water-rafting, maybe?..hehe
that some people really NEED that adrenalyne, them endorphins, and get restless unless they are throwin themselves off cliffs, risking thie rlives doin all sorts

eating, shopping, etc etc. you can apply what you are saying to any activity

i am trying to open up debate about hallucinogens because of their profound importance, respectfully approached. but FIRST you have to be brave and try em. only THAN can you criticize them if you want to. i would still challenge that though
but as i keep saying, to right them off, withOUT having explored them is folly, and a kind of fear. there must be SOME attraction for you to be so eager to continue this debate.
tis thge season you know. dont know whereabouts you live.....but Liberty Caps are fairly easy to find all over. 30 of the little buggers should do it

 

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Yes I thought of that. That's why I asked: how deep should we cut? It's's certaintly a form of enjoyment, of escapism. But experiencing life as it presents itself is still line with reality.

People who sell Liberty Caps go to jail where I live. (South Africa, by the way). The attraction to me is revulsion. What I've seen of hallucogenics (not even drugs) is that they present immieiate gratification, and leave you stoned. If you're not going to use them consistently, what's the point? And if you're going to use them consistently, to what end? Then it's not "deepening" anymore, but shallow and superficial. I don't go on adventure trips every weekend, but I don't need to. I have an imagination. I don't want something that only promises to let me down to replace that.