Rape Prevention: A New Advocate for Open-Ended Prevention Theory

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Sep 12, 2012.


(Check all that apply): My advice is ...

Poll closed Sep 13, 2013.
  1. ... that women should stay out of bars, for their own safety.

    0 vote(s)
  2. ... that women should stay out of Arizona, for their own safety.

  3. ... that people shouldn't rape or sexually assault one another.

  4. ... that Judge Hatch should go ... uh ... "grope" herself.

  5. ... that ... um ... I need an "other" option.

Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    By the Time I Get to Arizona ....

    Open-ended prevention theory—an idea that places the burden of rape on the victims—has a new advocate, and that advocate is a woman.

    Honestly, I didn't see this coming.

    You can tell me that Judge Jacqueline Hatch was appointed by Governor Jan Brewer, but there comes a point when the wingnut coefficient just doesn't explain things.

    Sevil Omer offers a lede for this one:

    A sexual assault victim who was groped by an off-duty police officer is demanding an apology from an Arizona judge who during a sentencing hearing for the defendant told her: "If you wouldn’t have been there that night, none of this would have happened to you."

    And the detail:

    According to the Arizona Daily Sun, a jury convicted 43-year-old Robb Gary Evans of a felony charge of sexual abuse on July 2. Prosecutors said Evans walked up behind the victim in a Flagstaff bar, put his hand up her skirt and groped her last summer. The former Arizona Department of Public Safety officer had been facing a maximum sentence of up to 2 ½ years in prison, but received two years of probation, community service and treatment. He was fired after his conviction.

    The Daily Sun's account of the court hearing:

    Bad things can happen in bars, Hatch told the victim, adding that other people might be more intoxicated than she was.

    "If you wouldn't have been there that night, none of this would have happened to you," Hatch said.

    Hatch told the victim and the defendant that no one would be happy with the sentence she gave, but that finding an appropriate sentence was her duty.

    "I hope you look at what you've been through and try to take something positive out of it," Hatch said to the victim in court. "You learned a lesson about friendship and you learned a lesson about vulnerability."

    Hatch said that the victim was not to blame in the case, but that all women must be vigilant against becoming victims.

    "When you blame others, you give up your power to change," Hatch said that her mother used to say.​

    Let us just stop and think about this for a moment.

    And, yes, we'll set aside the usual rhetoric about human dignity and personal responsibility that rape advocates generally ignore when reaching deep enough to argue that men are simply machines and thus not responsible for their actions.

    I mean, really. We've been through it all before, and four years later, no rape advocate has managed to establish an outer boundary to this prevention theory.

    So let us look at the practical. That is, let us inject some politics to make the point.

    Imagine you're a business owner. You know, because there is so much talk about government being hostile to small businesses.

    Now imagine that the official word coming down from your state government is, "Women, do not go to bars."

    You know, if you're a tavern owner ....

    But that's the problem. Prevention? Judge Hatch has essentially sent a message to all women that they should stay out of bars. And that might be fine for, say, the Madison, just as telling men to stay out of bars works well enough for the Wildrose. But, you know, I can't imagine popping down for a pint at Elliott and encountering a total sausage fest. Sure, sometimes the only woman in there is a waitress, but in the evening there are plenty of female ... er ... patrons? (Really?)

    The night I saw Lavelle White at Taylor's? I ended up having a great week-long fling with a woman because I was depressed about my car being stolen and just wanted to go get a drink. The night the Ecstasy-dosed woman in the leather pants climbed all over me at Showbox? The night we got loaded at the Elysian with a couple of women whose names I might actually have known once, and then wandered around getting high on the streets?

    Apparently, they should never have come out. After all, if you're not there, nobody drinking at that bar will be able to rape you. And now that Judge Hatch mentions it, I cannot tell you why I didn't rape those women. I have no excuse.

    And perhaps my sarcasm seems a little insensitive toward the needs of rapists and their advocates, but, in truth, it's probably a better expression than being straightforward.

    So how about it, rape advocates? Does your open-ended prevention theory go this far? Should women just stay out of bars, as Judge Hatch suggests?


    Omer, Sevil. "Sex assault victim groped by off-duty cop wants apology from Arizona judge". NBC News. September 7, 2012. USnews.NBCNews.com. September 11, 2012. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...off-duty-cop-wants-apology-from-arizona-judge
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  3. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Wow, what's next. will sober drivers have to stay off the road to avoid getting hit by drunk ones? how about minorities and people with disabilities avoid getting jobs so that we never get discriminated against? Oh I know, let's avoid being born so that we never become someone else's victim!
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    I understand the doctrine of contributory negligence and recognize that it is basically sensible if used judiciously. If you're riding your bicycle on a busy street with fast-moving traffic, not wearing a helmet, and the brakes fail in one of the cars, and it runs you down, and you suffer a fatal concussion, should the driver's insurance company have to pay the going rate for a death instead of hospitalization?

    But in this case, the injury was not inflicted deliberately. As a responsible citizen you're expected to understand that accidents happen, and that's why we call them accidents, and that's why we wear seat belts in our cars and helmets on our bikes. If you think wearing a helmet so grievously reduces the joy of biking that you can't stand doing it, well hey that's your decision. But as far as I'm concerned you have also made the decision to die in a collision with a larger vehicle. You should warn your wife that she might become a widow and there won't be any monetary judgment to support her and the children because it's not the job of the justice system to take care of morons.

    But going into a bar and being mauled by a drunk? Every public establishment is responsible for maintaining order. Here in the People's Republic of Maryland, proprietors are held responsible for allowing patrons to become too drunk to behave in a civilized manner. They all have at least one bouncer for every room, and even though they blend in and you never see them, those guys can move with remarkable speed and break up a fight before it even happens.

    Drunken men don't usually pop out of nowhere and suddenly start pawing the female customers. They usually get loud and boisterous first, start making insulting remarks to the ladies, and draw plenty of attention to themselves. The bouncers are ready to toss them out for simply being rowdy, but they've certainly got their eyes on the low-lifes and will be there the moment their hand starts to move in the direction of a lady's body.

    So I hold the establishment responsible for this particular indignity. They served a patron who was too drunk to continue being served and they didn't keep an eye on him to prevent him from molesting the customers. The victim has some pretty deep pockets to plumb.

    Still, that doesn't reduce the patron's responsibility. He should be in jail.

    As for the lady... well I suppose if a bar has a reputation for being rowdy, a sensible person won't go there. The other bars should be happy to pick up the extra customers, and with the extra money they bring in, they can hire more bouncers. But in this case there's no indication that the bar had that reputation, so the lady had a reasonable expectation of being treated like a lady in a public place.

    Oh wait, we're talking about Arizona, aren't we. Never mind! I lived there for eight miserable years. Sheriff Arpaio is a warning to the entire human race: Don't come to Arizona!
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Necessary Update: Hatch Apologized

    Necessary Update: Hatch Apologized

    "I apologize to the victim for any additional anguish my comments may have caused. It was never my intention to make a situation worse for any victim. I have learned an important lesson and will apply what I have learned to future cases, to ensure that the rights and views of all victims are heard and respected." Judge Jacqueline Hatch

    I would be remiss to not point out that Judge Hatch apologized in reasonably genuine words—that is, it doesn't seem to be a "non-apology apology"—and the victim "genuinely" appreciates that apology.

    The victim also thanked her supporters in the public sphere: "My heart is absolutely elated to know how many wonderful, empathetic people there are in our community. Thank you all, I am absolutely honored by the love and support behind me."

    As it turns out, Hatch apologized before this thread ever opened. That omission falls to me.


    Betz, Eric. "Judge Hatch apologizes to victim". Arizona Daily Sun. September 7, 2012. AZDailySun.com. September 18, 2012. http://azdailysun.com/news/local/cr...cle_7e48fb9a-f934-11e1-b15a-0019bb2963f4.html
  8. arauca Banned Banned


    I am not an rape advocate nor I visit bars. Based on what our society is , they should stay away from places were they may run into a potential abuse, otherwise accept the consequences.
  9. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Can you name a place where no woman has ever been raped?

    You're basically advocating the morality of the Victorian Era: Women should remain cloistered in order to be safe, while men go out and have all the fun.

    Fuck that shit!
  10. Bells Staff Member

    Including their own homes and bedrooms? Because if women are to stay away from places where they may run "into a potential abuse", it will include her own house and every house of anyone she knows that may contain a male and every male member of her family and acquaintance and any she may come into contact with in her course of employment.

    Since you know, the majority of rapes are committed by people known to the victim, either a family member or other male acquaintance...

    Perhaps rapists should just not rape and if they do rape, they should be made to accept the consequences of their actions against their victims and be made to be seen as the criminals they are instead of shifting the criminal blame onto the victim? Just perhaps? Yes?
  11. arauca Banned Banned

    How com that you can use foul language and not get suspended, as a moderator
  12. arauca Banned Banned

    No one should rape any person , but we live not a perfect society. At the same time women, should dress and act more modestly then before 1960 with miniskirt, Remember what JFK
    mentioned " now the skirts anre shorter they will have to run faster " I don't know do we have more sexual assaults in the present time then before 1960 ?
  13. Bells Staff Member

    You do realise that what she wears has no bearing on whether she will be raped or not, don't you?

    In that how a woman dresses will have no bearing on her not being raped.. You do get that, don't you?

    A woman wearing a skirt down to her knees and showing no flesh at all is just as likely and unlikely to be raped as a woman wearing a mini-skirt is likely and unlikely to be raped.
  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    There's no rule against profanity. Our members use it all the time. Most of us here are Americans, and this is the way we talk in our country.

    Words are just words. They only hurt you if you allow them to.

    But rape is an action. It does hurt. Every mother is supposed to raise her little boys to respect women, and not feel that they have a right to rape them, just because they wear sexy clothing. When a man commits rape, he is disrespecting his mother. She should grab a big stick and hit him with it, over and over, until he can't ever harm another woman again. If she is dead or otherwise unavailable, then other women should gang up and do it.

    Women should not have to wear those stupid fucking burqas in order to be able to walk down the street safely in broad daylight. There's something terribly wrong with a society in which that is necessary.
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    The statistics on that probably indicate a multimodal distribution of factors or even triggers.

    Of course, even if it were supported, it still boils down to the same problem. It just makes it more acute in certain circumstances.
  16. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    A rapist is only looking for two things:
    • A pair of X chromosomes.
    • Reasonable likelihood of getting away with it.
    Women wearing very conservative, non-revealing clothes are raped all the time. Very old women who have lost any semblance of allure are raped all the time. Little girls who can only be distinguished from little boys by their grooming and clothing are raped all the time.
  17. arauca Banned Banned


    Lets clear up first why people commit rape ? and why people masturbate , How much difference is there between rape and masturbation . Will the individual who is masturbating prefer have sex with a woman then masturbate .

    Please answer my questions
  18. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Sometimes it's difficult to find a non-insulting response...

    I mean seriously. :bugeye:
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Noble Raiment


    However ... our neighbor provides us an opportunity to explore boundaries.

    This particular subject is particularly irksome because, as I noted in the title, it is an open-ended theory of prevention. Sciforums clawed through a version of this discussion four years ago, and after five hundred posts, one question remained unanswered: What is the limit of this prevention theory?

    There comes a point where the burka-clad, chastity belt-wearing woman should not answer the door because the FedEx man might rape her, and then it would be her fault for answering the door.

    Our neighbor wishes to stand with that prevention theory; perhaps he might do what nobody has been able to accomplish so far—explain to us the outer boundaries of what women must do in order to not be raped.

    Meanwhile, we also get a hint: A woman is apparently a sexual gratification aide comparable to one's right hand.

    One of the interesting things about a virtual community is the idea of the characters people play. It is almost astounding how many of my neighbors here, for various reasons, display such attributes as to fall into that category of people I would not allow within a thousand feet of my daughter.

    Indeed, if it was a concentrated human community—if we all lived in Sciville, somewhere on the actual face of the planet—the idea of me carrying a gun to protect my family suddenly enters the realm of possibility.

    In that sense, I'm aware that I'm dealing with a virtual community, and thus the exaggerations of character and style that go with it, but the markers, in a Freudian context, are still pretty scary.

    Those who openly advocate rape would be one thing, but as our neighbor demonstrates, rape advocacy often hides in noble raiment.
  20. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Yes there is:

    Profanity12. Cursing is tolerated, but excessive use of vulgar language will attract moderator attention.​
  21. arauca Banned Banned


    I suppose your way of thinking is different.
    Can you tell What do you do if your dick is erected and you have a desire to empty your sperm. If you don't have a partner. But an individual who have power over a female , he persuades the female by force to have sex , but you probable will rape yourself with your hand .
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Well that was a disturbing follow-up.
  23. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    I'd say that's quite the understatement.

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