Random mutation, please, what is an example today in everyday circumstances?

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by Pachomius, Jul 13, 2009.

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  1. Pachomius Registered Senior Member

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    Random mutation has to do with the theory of evolution, as in random mutation is followed by natural selection in the rise of a new species.


    I like to ask the science experts here what is an example of a situation of random mutation today in everyday circumstances.



    Pachomius
     
  2. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    The H1N1 influenza's resistance to Tamiflu.
     
  3. Pachomius Registered Senior Member

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    As regards the post of Repo, I think that is not yet the kind of random mutation situation that can give rise to a situation where natural selection takes place to give rise to a new species.

    Pachomius
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2009
  4. Dub_ Strange loop Registered Senior Member

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    I suppose it is true that it is not "yet" a case of random mutation followed by natural selection as the H1N1 virus to my knowledge hasn't yet been observed mutating; although that could quickly change.

    A good example from the same area is that of AIDs and the HIV virus. Check out this link:
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/1/l_011_20.html
    It contains a 4 minute video and a background article on the concept. It explains everything in no uncertain terms. A very helpful piece.
     
  5. Hercules Rockefeller voltage gated ion channel Moderator

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    Alright, I'll give this a chance but the second it degenerates into creationist nonsense, it's gone....

    You merely have to look at single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) to see random mutations. Two non-related humans will have a DNA sequence difference every 100-1000 base pairs. That’s millions to tens of millions of differences between any two people. These have come about through random mutation.
     
  6. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    You didn't ask about random mutations that give rise to new species.
     
  7. Dub_ Strange loop Registered Senior Member

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    Well... yes, two non-related humans will have many, many differences in their DNA, but it's not true that all of these differences are the result of point mutations. The vast majority of genetic variation in a population is simply the result of genetic shuffling, also known as sex.
     
  8. Hercules Rockefeller voltage gated ion channel Moderator

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    You are confusing two different things. Changes in DNA sequence as a result of meiotic recombination is not the same thing as point mutations. SNPs are changes on DNA sequence that are the result of mutations.
     
  9. Pachomius Registered Senior Member

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    I put this thread in the board of Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology, thinking as I do that the topic could go with cosmology.

    As it develops, I feel now that it should better go to General Philosophy.


    So, may I just ask the supervisorial personnel concerned to move it to General Philosophy.


    I guess the question asked of experts in science whether we have today an example of a situation where random mutation can lead to natural selection, which gives rise to a new species, that question from my heart and mind is really honestly motivated by philosophical perspectives.


    In this respect I want to understand what science experts mean by random, by mutation, and also by natural, and lastly by selection, if they would go into the concepts of random mutation and natural selection from the standpoint of philosophy.



    Now, if science experts are not concerned with the philosophical aspects of random mutation and natural selection, perhaps they might care to venture just the same into this area, because I have seen scientists having the designation after their names of Ph.D.

    Wherefore they are doctors of philosophy although specifically oriented toward science, yes? no?



    Pachomius
     
  10. Dub_ Strange loop Registered Senior Member

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    I know -- my entire point rests on the fact that they are not the same thing. I'm not sure if it was your intention or not, but you erroneously stated that point mutations (SNPs) are the sole source of genetic variation in a population. I was merely pointing out that, no, in fact most variation is due simply to sex (and more generally meiosis).
     
  11. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Not quite.
    The "Ph" in the case of scientists should be taken as the original meaning: "lover of knowledge" - i.e. "natural philosophy" for physicists and the like, as opposed to "Philosophy".
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Natural selection is a scientific theory, not a philosophical position. How exactly do you propose to discuss it philosophically?
     
  13. Pachomius Registered Senior Member

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    How to start a philosophical discussion: first, get the exact definitions of terms.


    Well, if we understand what is a philosophical discussion, then we can discuss it philosophically.

    Since everything can be discussed in a philosophical manner, so also natural selection can be discussed philosophically.

    What is a philosophical discussion, specifically of natural selection?

    To my mind, first I have to find out exactly what is understood by the word 'natural' and also by the word 'selection' from people who use them in their science writing, in particular on the theory of evolution.

    That for me is the start of a philosophical discussion of natural selection as used by people writing on the theory of evolution.

    Do you have another approach to the discussion in philosophy of natural selection as used by proponents of the theory of evolution?




    Pachomius
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Can we discuss my nose in a philosophical manner?

    What have you found out so far? Do you have a starting point for this discussion or are you a blank slate?
     
  15. Pachomius Registered Senior Member

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    Do you know any online glossary, dictionary, encyclopedia on evolution terminology?


    I am still looking for a free online dictionary of evolution, so that I can read what it says about random, mutation, natural, and selection, in the usage of the proponents of the theory of evolution.

    Then I will look up a good also free dictionary of science for the same terms above.

    Lastly I will look up a standard dictionary of philosophical terms for the same terms: random, mutation, natural, and selection.

    With all the ideas from these dictionaries on random, mutation, natural, selection, I will try to determine what kind of premises are they working on in their expositions of the ideas behind the words: random, mutation, natural, and selection.


    And in all modesty, I think that is already a philosophical discussion within myself of random mutation and natural selection as the bare bones of the theory of evolution.



    There are plenty of reference works on philosophical terms in the internet, freely available.

    Science dictionaries and encyclopedia are I am sure also plenty online for free in the internet.

    However, so far after six hours of search I have not found a useful reference work at least a glossary of evolution in the internet.


    Do you know of any reference works like glossary, dictionary, encyclopedia on terminology employed by the proponents of the theory of evolution?



    You ask:
    Can we discuss my nose in a philosophical manner?​

    Of course we can, it all depends on what we understand by philosophy.

    I understand philosophy as the continuing ceaseless quest for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything in the light of speculative reasoning.

    So, in the light of speculative reasoning we can discuss your nose whether it is properly programmed for whatever it is useful for to yourself.



    Pachomius
     
  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    You haven't managed to find a good explanation of terms like "natural selection" after 6 hours of searching the internet? Really? I thought google would lead you to a good explanation in a few seconds.

    Anyway...

    random: governed by or depending on chance.
    mutation: any event that changes genetic structure; any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence of the genotype of an organism.

    As for "natural" and "selection", you're best off looking at definitions of the term "natural selection", since this will restrict explanations to the context of biology, which I think is what you want.

    Let me know what you find out about the kinds of premises the dictionaries are working on in their expositions once you've looked at a few. Who knows? It might even lead to some kind of interesting discussion.

    Have you tried a google search for "dictionary of biology"?
     
  17. river-wind Valued Senior Member

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  18. Hercules Rockefeller voltage gated ion channel Moderator

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    :confused:

    Nowhere have I stated that SNPs are the sole source genetic variation. I merely offered them as one example of genetic variation through mutation.
     
  19. Pachomius Registered Senior Member

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    Please, I said I have not found a reference work on evolution like a glossary...

    Please, I said I have not found a reference work on evolution like a glossary, a dictionary, an encyclopedia.

    A biology dictionary is not exactly the same as a evolution dictionary.

    You see, the theory of evolution has been with us over what, a hundred years already, and scholars don't seem to be determined to set up a definite terminology proper to the theory of evolution, like for terms so important which make up the essential concept of the theory, namely, the words random, mutation, natural, selection which form the terms 'random mutation' and 'natural selection.'

    No, the standard dictionary of biology will not do for people really intent to get the definitive explanations of random, mutation, natural, and selection in the theory of evolution as the proponents use them to advance the whole theory of evolution.

    So, please if you know any free online glossary, or dictionary, or encyclopedia of the theory of evolution, please just give me their online reference, i.e., websites.



    Pachomius
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2009
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It will do for your apparent level of discussion easily. Try it. If you have any questions after you have become familiar with the standard biological meanings, many people here can fill in the corners, so to speak.
     
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