Racial Divisions in the U.S.

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Crcata, Jun 24, 2016.

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  1. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    Greetings! In another thread that I made, an interesting (and something I personally feel strongly about) topic was brought up. It's about the racial divisions in the U.S. (And don't hesitate to include your countries present state if you would like to)

    It is no secret that in the U.S the racial tensions are high, more so than they have been in the recent past. This topic isn't solely about blacks vs whites, however the most prevalent of the tensions is the Black vs White attitude that I have seen so much of lately. A feeling that blacks present day are being purposefully and intentionally "suppressed" by the government on any large scale, or white people in general is becoming more common. A feeling that has fueled the creation of many different groups out there whom soul purpose is to promote black people in our society.

    I must admit, that this topic brings out very passionate responses from people and is one of the topics more pron to bring out the worst in people when it comes to talking about it. Everyone's opinions are heavily based on values and what not, which almost never change. However, despite my tendency to be somewhat verbally aggressive towards those whom opinion blow my mind and utterly irritate me, I will make a powerful effort to avoid being that way and to be as objective as possible when seeing/hearing other peoples points of view. However do try to keep the topic somewhat centered on "present day". Reference the past only as an "x because of y (y being what happened in the past X being present day)".

    So what is your opinion on the topic? Do you believe that blacks are being targeted unfairly by police or government in general? Do you think there is a such thing as white privilege? Do you believe you have a solution? Do you have any predictions as to how long this will last, and any lasting effects? Do you think other races are suffering more so?


    My Opinion:

    I believe that of course in the past the slavery that occurred was absolutely terrible. However, as a white man, I do not believe that I should be looked at in any way shape or form in a negative light because of it, as I did not participate in it. I also feel, that no black man should ever use that as an excuse for his anger, as he did not suffer through it. Although, mainly from my experience as a 911 operator, I have seen that many of the black community disagree.

    It is also no secret that the black community is among, if not THE poorest (monetarily) community we have in America, this can be seen in statistics and by simply driving through essentially any ghetto in America that I have ever been to/am aware of. However, I do not believe this is because the government is taking any actions to make this happen, either purposefully or otherwise. I believe that is more a testament to the culture that more people in their community embrace, than in other communities. A "thug" culture that values selfishness over helping of others, a lack of problems solving skills outside of violence to solve their problems, a lack of desire for education, broken families, to just name a few aspects of that culture. Of course, as with almost everything, this culture is also in all other ethnic groups as well but appears to be much more concentrated in the black community.

    I can say from experience, that I have lost a job opportunity due to me being white while they needed more hispanics. So I find it hard to believe that I benefit at all from "white privilege" that I have heard about.

    I also personally find that throwing race into every issue, without significant evidence to show that race was actually a factor in the outcome, very irritating. And that seems to be a default argument for many, to the point it has been given a name...the "race card". I think that by throwing race into every issue, does not "fight racism by raising awareness", but instead has the opposite effect, it breeds it.

    I'll cut myself short right there for the moment, as I don't want you guys to have to read a novel.

    *Gets the Fire Department on standby*
     
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  3. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    My opinon:

    That was a racist rant.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Fun With Fantasy Literature

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    Click for ghosts.

    Steven Brust, Yendi (New York: Ace, 1984):

    Walking through the filth in the streets made me want to retch, but I hid it. Anyway, we all know Easterners are filthy, right? Look at how they live. Never mind that they can’t use sorcery to keep their neighborhoods clean the way Dragaerans do. If they want to use sorcery, they can become citizens of the Empire by moving into the country and becoming Teckla, or buying titles in the Jhereg. Don’t want to be serfs? They’re stubborn, too, aren’t they? Don’t have the money to buy titles? Of course not! Who’d give them a good job, seeing how filthy they are?

    It is more likely that the allegory originally referred to attitudes toward the Roma, because, well, that's how it works.

    Still, the passage is quick to mind because it reflects a notion I've been aware of since youth, during one or another of David Duke's swings through headline infamy, having something to do with East Saint Louis demonstrating the inherent inferiority of blacks. It would be one thing if our history included a clean break from particular injustices, but the legacies still haunt us. From slavery through Jim Crow, Civil Rights, the Drug War, and into the era of Stand Your Ground hunting season and police departments going out of their way to demonize dark skin―or chasing the only black officer on the force out of town, or maybe city employees refusing the newly-elected black mayor access to city hall―it really is hard to figure just when American society hasn't been going out of its way to screw with black people.

    Nobody gets to erase that history.

    As I wrote last month↗:

    In my youth, the prevailing societal discourse still held violence among black communities in a range by which it was at least acceptable to postulate such outcomes indicated fundamental human inferiority; 'twixt then and now we learned a few things about how human beings work, both in and of themselves and within community dynamics. You've witnessed the transformation to discussing economic and social justice; the chaos and damage we focus on in some minority communities is inextricably tied to human behavior under circumstances describing poverty, oppression, and alienation. The discussion always stalls at the sins of the empowerment class; this becomes a rhetorical battle line. And as Justice creeps into the gaps with e'er more nuanced comprehension of people and society, the fundamental argument against such change always comes down to the difference between black and white, or male and female, or Christian and everybody else.

    In a society that specifically seeks to disrupt certain people for ridiculous reason, we do not get to complain if targeted communities display signs of disruption. This would seem fairly straightforward, except, you know, they're black, so ... whatever, we need new rules just for them. No, seriously, we don't get to take it out on the skin color.
     
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    It seems that the rhetoric of suppression long outlives any real suppression.
     
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  8. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I don't know what you mean by "the recent past," but the phrase usually refers to a series of decades that a large percentage of the population remembers personally. I was born in the early 1940s, so for me the "recent past" spans everything since I graduated from high school in 1960--the Vietnam War, Martin Luther King, the painfully slow demise of racism, the collapse of the Iron Curtain, Carter's horribly stupid establishment of the Taliban, Reagan's horribly stupid Iran-Contra debacle, 9/11, Backward Baby Bush's desperate (and, unfortunately, largely successful) attempt to blame 9/11 on Saddam Hussein instead of his daddy's buddies in Saudi Arabia, and what appears to be open season on the American people, for the (apparently) 98% of the population who can legally acquire an assault rifle without a background check.

    So to say "racial tensions are high" is to concentrate on an issue that is, in fact, primarily between the cops (both black and white) and the black civilians they claim to protect. I live in the suburbs of Baltimore, so Freddy Gray has been on the front page of our newspapers and the lead story on our TV newscasts for an entire year. Maryland is, arguably, the most successfully racially integrated state in the country. Our black population comprises a much larger portion of the state's population than (IIRC) any other state. In 15 years in Maryland I've never once seen an altercation between a white civilian and a black civilian that went beyond loud words. But the fucking goddamned cops (white and black) just keep shooting them!
    Yes, as they have been since before I was born. Perhaps you are old enough to have been taught about the long era of slavery? Followed by the Jim Crow laws? Since we have a President who is black (although his DNA is half caucasian like many Afro-Americans), it's kinda difficult to make a case for blacks being targeted unfairly.
    Sure, but these days it has more to do with a long history of Afro-Americans being denied opportunities that were lavished on us white people. "Affirmative Action" resulted in members of ethnic minorities being given jobs for which they were unqualified, just because so few of them had been able to get a college education. All this did was suggest to the average white American that black people simply aren't smart enough to program computers or calculate the interest on a mortgage.
    Sure: time.
    There are always "lasting effects," even though it often takes several generations, or even several centuries, before the people who live with those effects realize it. Perhaps you've noted some of the dozens of news reports on the enmity between the Turks and Armenians due to something that was done a hundred years ago so almost no eyewitnesses are still alive?
    In the USA? Probably no, although Muslims are going through a really bad patch right now. And let's not forget our Native people. The only ones who are actually "doing well" are those who simply gave up on their heritage (except for a few traditions and rituals) and assimilated into the mainstream population.

    On the other hand, Jewish people have found the USA to be the actual "promised land" they've been looking for since Biblical days. For quite a while now, more Jews have been abandoning Israel and emigrating to the USA, than American Jews emigrating to Israel. If this keeps up, Israel may find itself a majority-Arab country.
    You need a little stronger sense of history. You, I, and all Caucasian Americans have been profiting from the work performed by slaves for more than two centuries. They constructed our government buildings, they grew the food that our ancestors ate to make themselves strong and healthy, and they even laid a lot of the tracks for the railroads that brought the various corners of the USA together into one community.
    You are an amazingly typical American. You have absolutely NO RESPECT for history. Do you honestly believe that every decade exists on its own, with no roots in the things that happened in the past, and no influence on the things that will happen in the future?

    Are you one of the despicable pack of Republicans who honestly believe that the desperate people who are crossing our border with Mexico are Mexicans? Have you followed the news enough to realize that Mexico turned itself into a middle-class country 15 years ago, and their people are now moving BACK to launch their own businesses and give their own children jobs?

    Do you even remember Ronald-may-he-rot-in-hell-Reagan's "Iran-Contra" debacle, which completely destroyed the economies and societies of Central America? A generation later, those poor people are still trying to help their children escape from their devastated countries.
    Again, you continue to pick and choose your headlines to support your own largely incorrect assessments of the USA.

    You apparently have given no thought at all to our native people. It is THEY who are the poorest people in the USA. Moreover the laws that the federal government imposed on them, even in their own supposedly "sovereign" reservations, leave them with mediocre legal systems. A Euro-American can drive onto reservation land and rape the first Native woman he sees, and the probability is extremely high that he won't be arrested, much less prosecuted, much less incarcerated.
    You are certainly careful about your sources of news.

    But to dig down to the bottom of this screed, you obviously have never taken a course in economics. It can (and usually does) take several generations for a minority population that is disliked by the majority to crawl its way up into an economic bracket with higher income and more opportunities. For starters, their children's schools need to be improved. We've been trying to do that for three generations (starting in the 1960s) and the schools in majority-black neighborhoods are still pathetic compared to the nearby white neighborhoods. Sure, we can blame a lot of this on the prevalence of families without fathers... but it is WE who are sending their fathers to prison for "drug crimes" for which white people are generally not even arrested, much less prosecuted, much less incarcerated. Most pathetically, they're selling their drugs to us white people! We don't want our children to be dealers, so we pay more to buy from a middleman.
    One incident does not constitute a statistic. Again, I find your education to have been pathetically poor.
    Based upon reading your post, I am certain that your ability to understand and analyze issues is too poor to depend on. When Dylann Roof walks into a church with an automatic weapon and kills nine black parishioners, because he has already done his homework and knows that this is a majority-black church, this is a race issue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
  9. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    Which part? Because I believe what I said is just reality. If reality is racist...that doesn't make me racist. I dont dislike people based on the color of their skin, only based off of their attitude/actions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
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  10. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    I was going to respond to each point individually, but your post is full of insults both direct and indirect and as I predicted, I highly doubt any good discussion could come of it.

    So in short I will leave it at this.

    My education and critical thinking abilities are just fine and likely better than yourself, and I just have different interpretations than yourself, based no more or no less on actual facts than yourself. I personally find YOUR critical thinking to be lacking.

    You seem to have already made up your mind about me and you literally couldn't be more wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
  11. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    How are we disrupting them, and for what ridiculous reasons?

    Is it police? Because the vast majority of the interactions are justified, including the shootings. Although definitely not all of them.

    If you have something to show, some type of policy or procedure or something along those lines that following of which would lead to the natural conclusion that blacks are being surpressed by govt, police, white people, etc then I would absolutely change my opinion.

    However, from any and all of the evidence I have ever been shown is evidence that could have any number of interpretations. Such as "more black people are in jail for X", which some interpret as the police unjustly targeting them but I interpret as "more black people commit X than others". In the end we dont have the ability to truly "know", but can only believe one way or the other. Or someone will link an obviously unjustified police shooting and pretend that shows beyond reasonable doubt that they are being unjustly targeted, not taking account into the fact that I could just link a justified police shooting.

    Is there any evidence that goes beyond that?

    Believe it or not this is a genuine jest. If there is something I am missing then by all means educate me. But I predict more responses like from FR, full of brash assumptions of myself and portraying his own interpretations as fact...and insulting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
  12. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

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    You are a racist. Not in the "we all behave in racist ways without thinking about it" way, but in the "almost wearing a white sheet" way. What you are writing is not reality. You probably haven't really looked for reality. You certainly haven't listened to many black people.
     
  13. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    Racism is disliking people due to the color of their skin. Which is not me. I dislike people for their attitudes and actions. You are wrong. Even bringing up this topic labels people are racist it seems.

    I simply see the reality, and call it for what it is. That is not racist. The points that I made are absolutely true. Do you have something to add to the discussion that could show different?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
  14. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    Just about all of it.
    I'm sure you do.
    You opinions would make you racist not reality.
    You seem to think attitudes/actions are tied to skin color - that is racist.
     
  15. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    Thats entirely not true. I never once claimed that attitudes/actions are tied to skin color, in fact I stated strictly otherwise. You either have reading comprehension problems, or as I predicted would happen, the mere mention of the topic by a white man automatically gets labeled as racist without even the slightly look at what I believe. Nothing I said should indicate that I am racist, it is simply just truth, the same thing could be said by a black man (and has been) and would be taken more seriously...THAT is racist.

    You are wrong.
     
  16. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

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    No, it's much more than that. It is also a systematic bias in a society against a group of people because they can be identified (correctly or incorrectly) as belonging to a certain biological history. You demonstrate that you have bought into this bias.
    I dislike you for your attitude and actions: your racist attitude and your actions of posting racist things. You label "black people" as coming from a "culture" of "thugs".
    No, you do not see reality, and it is doubtful that you want to see reality. That is why your a racist.
     
  17. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    Unsurprisingly, you have bought into a mob mentality. You are the racist for not even being able to actually read what I have said and judge me based on that. You half read what I said, seen that I said I was white, put your own twist on what I said, and then you label me a racist completely for bringing up a topic due to the color of my skin. Hypocrite.

    I have no bias, I simply have seen the world for what it is and call it out. Nothing I have said is incorrect. Everything I have said can be reasonably interpreted from statistics.

    You dislike me and literally have no idea who I am, and have made a judgement about me based on your own purposeful MISinterpretations of what I have said. I have posted nothing that is racist, I do not label blacks as coming from a culture of thugs, I stated that thugs come from any culture, but are more heavily centered in the black community. This is not racist thinking. It is a reasonable assertion taken from statistics. If you did any amount of research on the subject you would see this. But I am sure you just not believe the statistics...and call the statistics racist lol. Your failure to comprehend and to misrepresent that one point right there shows exactly the bias you have yourself.

    And I do see the reality, but apparently according to you my skin color makes it racist for me to state the reality. That makes you a hypocrite, it appears that you are the racist.

    Funny enough, I am not the first to say this. This has actually been said by many different people, including members of the black community. But the uneducated who share a mob mentality and are so easily riled up love to shout racism at everything.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  18. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    So just to put things in better perspective. Here is a quick statistic that anyone can find on the FBI statistics page. Now, if you do not believe the statistics, then I guess we have nothing else to discuss.

    In 2013, of the reported homicides there were 5375 that were committed by members of the black community. 4396 committed by members of the white community and around 4000 unknown. Seeing as the black community only makes up approximately 13 percent of the U.S. population, and they make up MORE of the homicide actors than any other race, it is reasonable to assume that there is likely some type of cultural issue in that community. That is not racist thinking, it is objective reason. Sure, it could have nothing what so ever to do with their culture, it could be the government framing them, it could be ANYTHING. But at the very least, those whom have any amount of an objective mindset, and aren't fueled by an agenda of throwing racism into anything would have to acknowledge the likelihood of a cultural issue.

    There are more statistics of violent crime which look even worse for the black community nearly 40 percent in many cases. It is also worth noting that most of the homicides done to any member of any ethnic group, was committed by another member of that ethnic group.
     
  19. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

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    \
    No, I read what you wrote. You wrote the following racist content: 'I believe that is more a testament to the culture that more people in their community embrace, than in other communities. A "thug" culture that values selfishness over helping of others...'
    Yes, you have bias. You are a) white, b) a former 911 call operator. You chose to believe that all the information that just happened to come your way is representative of black people. You live in a society that routinely portrays black people poorly and with systemic problems for black people.

    I dislike you because you are racist. You have amply demonstrated that you are racist, so that is about all I need to know.

    Again, you wrote: 'I believe that is more a testament to the culture that more people in their community embrace, than in other communities. A "thug" culture that values selfishness over helping of others'

    Again, you wrote: 'I believe that is more a testament to the culture that more people in their community embrace, than in other communities. A "thug" culture that values selfishness over helping of others'
     
  20. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    And yet you conveniently left out the part where I said "Of course, as with almost everything, this culture is also in ALL OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS as well". So exactly as I said, you have a mob mentality, you purposefully have misrepresented my position in hopes of further advancing some unknown agenda. All because I am pointing of reality while being white. You sir, are the racist. So objectively, nothing I have said is racist. You are wrong.

    So according to you, because I am white, I am biased. And you are calling me racist? LOL. I am not bias, I am calling the reality for what it is and asking for a reasonable discussion about the reality.

    I dont live in a society that paints black people as being poor (monetarily), this is statistically proven fact. *assuming you believe the statistics*. Sure, there are poor people and rich people from all ethnic groups, but that does not mean that there are not more in one place, and less in another. Please, either give to the discussion or emote somewhere else.

    You literally have no idea who I am, you have based your opinion of me on your own and purposeful MISinterpretation of my opinion.

    You are a hypocrite.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  21. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    I really think that moron Trump has emboldened racists. We certainly seem to be getting more than usual on this site.

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  22. Crcata Registered Senior Member

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    Hypocrite

    But it seems that the couple hypocrites that have responded have no reasonable arguments. Just insults and brash accusations and purposeful misrepresentation with 0 evidence.

    I dont know why I expected any thing else.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
  23. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    You shouldn't expect anything else than the responses you're getting.
     
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