# Purpose of sleep and the effect on uploads.

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Cris, Jun 18, 2001.

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1. ### kmguruStaff Member

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11,757
Hello tony1:

It appears that your reasoning is like swiss cheese. May be because you thought you will know everything without the aids of your five senses!

TM is as scientific as neuroscience. Of course you know that, don't you?

3. ### tony1Jesus is LordRegistered Senior Member

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2,279
Yum.
Here I was, thinking it was as scientific as Hinduism.
Oh wait, it IS Hinduism.
Oh yeah, but I'm not as gullible as you.
Presumably, you think it is scientific because it is CALLED the Science of Creative Intelligence.

But, didn't it have a different name before that, like the Spiritual Regeneration Movement?
Like when it was a complete dud, about 30 years ago?

The name was changed because Maharishi Whatever realized that westerners wouldn't fall for it unless the word "science" showed up in the name somewhere.

So yeah, it's pretty scientific, alright.

Of course, that still doesn't answer the question of whether Cris reasoned that there was no God on his own or whether his Guru just told him there was no God.

5. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

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9,188
The irrelevance of tony1

Kmguru,

We found in the past that tony1 never offers anything constructive in these debates. Anything you say will be met with entirely destructive cynicism, regardless of any relevance to the topic. He is also a ‘last word’ freak. Any time you spend on developing a reasoned argument will be wasted since reasoning is not on his agenda.

Despite the frustrating illogic of his statements and the intense desire to respond to them, you will only achieve greater frustration. Any response you make will fuel his fire of irrelevance and illogic.

I recommend to you and everyone else, simply ignore him completely - he adds no value here

Cris

7. ### tony1Jesus is LordRegistered Senior Member

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2,279
Re: The irrelevance of tony1

Bummer.
Actually, it is on my agenda.
Be sure you recognize reason.
What I've seen here is fantasy.

I've spent some time working on robotic equipment, since 1978.
I recognize reality when I see it and I also know that money goes where it gives the greatest returns.

People who have money do the same thing you do.
They say, "I'll believe it when I see it."
They haven't seen any value in androids so they haven't built them.

You heard it from an atheist pantheist, so it must be true.

8. ### kmguruStaff Member

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11,757
Tony:

I will provide you with some information that you may not know. You have a choice of using that information or not. If you can, we can continue on an intelligent discourse, if not...you seem to be a smart cookie...you know tha fall out...

"Here I was, thinking it was as scientific as Hinduism.
Oh wait, it IS Hinduism."

The basic principle behind TM is as old as Vedas and is a part of Indian Philosophy before the term "science" was invented. I did not learn that as TM but as a part of Sanatana Dharma. I knew it as a part of Yoga of Knowledge. Anyway, since Maharishi called it TM, who am I to argue for identification puposes. I am not a disciple of him, so I have no idea if he blended Hinduism with Neuroscience. To keep it simple I use the word TM...

But the fact remains that the process can be explained via neuroscience and information science which I am a world class expert.

"Oh yeah, but I'm not as gullible as you."
If my gullibility in information science earns me tons of money and lets me have fun with computers like Paracel, Sun E10K, play with Bio-Informatics, Unsupervised Adaptive neural nets, who am I to argue.

"Of course, that still doesn't answer the question of whether Cris reasoned that there was no God on his own or whether his Guru just told him there was no God."

Guru is a sanskrit word for teacher - in case you did not know. Now I am not trying to defend Cris, if you would have directed that question to me I would answer this way:

You just did not pop out of the test tube or your mother's womb with all the knowledge from non-human origin. If you think you did, my lips are sealed, I would not tell a soul.

So people have to learn, analyze and so on. Use certain methodology to arrive at a conclusion...I am sure you know where I am going....

I am a recognized expert in the field of expert systems, neuralnet and advanced decision systems. On the side I have worked with neurologists to help stroke victims to improve their motor functions. I am happy to say, I was able to help restore 99% of a stroke patient where the dignosis was 50% recovery.

So if you want to engage in some intelligent conversation, you are welcome. If not....c'est la vie....

9. ### tony1Jesus is LordRegistered Senior Member

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2,279
I'm with you on that.

By "the process," I assume you mean TM.

I wouldn't and I don't.
The latest boom in tech stocks flushed a lot of cash out of even more gullible wallets into the computer industry.
No problem there.

I did.
Great.
But what do you wish to say, now that you've established your point of view?

10. ### kmguruStaff Member

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11,757
I just said it....and apparently you got it...now let us move on...

Life is short....then you die.... (- Mel Gibson)

11. ### tony1Jesus is LordRegistered Senior Member

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2,279
OK

You were saying,"May be because you thought you will know everything without the aids of your five senses! "

My answer is, "I think I will know everything WITH, but not exclusively with, the aid of my five senses."

12. ### kmguruStaff Member

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11,757
It all started when you said: "For a guy who otherwise prefers to create an impression of scientific rigor, this TM thing seems out of character." to Cris.

I took an issue with that because of following reasonings:

The word Science means "Knowledge"
Your five senses and any other senses you have that we are not aware of provide "Data".
To turn "Data" to "Knowledge", you need a teacher. A "teacher" teaches and you "learn" from it.
The teacher take many forms - your parents, school and collge teachers, friends...and so on.
You "learn" to convert "data" to "Knowledge"

TM or any similar process is a process that facilitates in converting "Data" to "Knowledge" that which you know at a faster and quicker rate than no processes.

A TM teacher helps guide through the process so that you can utilize the technique to convert your data to knowledge.

An analogy will be how to read an X-ray film of a human chest. You see the light and shadow but you need training by a teacher to convert those light and shadow to meaningful knowledge.

The issue I took is that I say a teacher is necessary and TM enhances ones ability to understand those data.

You can agrue that you have another method that works for you. And you may be right. But you can not say that the method Cris used is wrong! or somehow diminishes his intellect!

It works for Cris, it works for me and many of my students. They improve their grade points, become successful and highly productive members of the society and most importantly they are happy. You seem to be a smart person. I am not knocking your methods...and I am not even saying TM is the only thing in town.

So, dont knock it until you try it....

Other than that we apparently agree on everything...great minds think alike...

13. ### tony1Jesus is LordRegistered Senior Member

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2,279
This brings up a point...
Why would Maharishi M. Y. change the name of his movement from "Spiritual Regeneration Movement" to "Science of Creative Intelligence?"
Didn't he "know" he wanted to deal with science?
Why would he be congratulated on the growth of SCI by the Vishva Hindu Parishad, which is the biggest missionary organization in the world?

This is the weak point, the fly in the ointment, so to speak.
How would you "know" you have the right teacher?
How would you "know" what the teacher is actually teaching you?

Presumably, you would have to have another teacher to teach you that first.

Sounds neat, but what about the suicide rate and the mental disturbance rate among TM devotees?

And again, what exactly is it that you end up "knowing?"
Any time a religion brings up the concept of maya, or illusion, one should ask why.
Which is the actual illusion, what you know, or what the guru is trying to tell you it is?
Think "three-card monte."
Actually, that is not the guru's purpose.
The guru is there so that you won't quit.
The guru's purpose is to ensure that, as your spiritual defenses against demonic activity are activated, they are torn down or sidestepped so that you will be in direct contact with demons.
If you take exception to the word "demons," feel free to replace it with "spiritual entities."

I say a teacher is not necessary.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
(1 John 2:27, KJV).

I also say that TM is Hinduism, pure and simple.
If you don't believe me, you can take the Hindus' word for it.

As you know, Hinduism results in a high quality of life.
India has by far the highest standard of living in the world (tongue-in-cheek).

Actually, TM techniques are yogic techniques which are very effective in making contact with the spirit world.
However, very few people have the intelligence, before or after TM, to discern between good and bad where spiritual issues are concerned.
Interestingly, most people can discern between good and bad for each of the five senses, but in spiritual things, for some reason, everything is discerned as good.

Sure I can.
I'm assuming that Cris is interested in the best possible result for his efforts in life.
The path that he has chosen won't give him that.
So it is "wrong" from Cris' perspective.

A person could go in different directions from that comment, but suffice it to say that his intellect will go downhill from here, if he doesn't change his mind.

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
(Isaiah 66:4, KJV).

Just to make the point clear...
TM works.
Yoga techniques work.
Hinduism works.
I say that their practitioners don't know what they work for.

They also become insane, commit suicide, etc.
And ultimately lose their lives.
Actually, we are diametrically opposed.

Your guru would have you believe that Hinduism accepts and tolerates Christianity, and that Jesus Christ is just an another avatar.

But, just to be on the safe side, where Hindus rule, the preaching of Christ is illegal.

14. ### kmguruStaff Member

Messages:
11,757
This brings up a point...
Why would Maharishi M. Y. change the name of his movement from "Spiritual Regeneration Movement" to "Science of Creative Intelligence?"
Didn't he "know" he wanted to deal with science?
Why would he be congratulated on the growth of SCI by the Vishva Hindu Parishad, which is the biggest missionary organization in the world?

I do not know, I do not care, I am not M.Y.'s Chela

Please go to the philosophy section, read and study philosophy well, whether knowledge is "a priori" or "a posteroi", people have been debating for hundreds of years...if you become a student of mine, I will teach you the secret answer. Dont take my word for it, even Chagur knows the answer to life, universe and everything. He may charge you $1000. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! My rates are somewhat expensive. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It must be those Christian militants - what you call them? Born Again? We also have Moslem militants, Hindu militants, and believe it or not we have Sinto militants that wanted to kill thousands of people with Sarin gas. It will drive the most saints....nuts You will know, what is knowable by your puny mind. It can only hold so much! Actually, that is not the guru's purpose. The guru is there so that you won't quit. The guru's purpose is to ensure that, as your spiritual defenses against demonic activity are activated, they are torn down or sidestepped so that you will be in direct contact with demons. If you take exception to the word "demons," feel free to replace it with "spiritual entities." Sorry, I am not in the spirit world, Demons, Spirits, they are alien words to me. I know they exist in Dictionary, but the concept eludes me. I say a teacher is not necessary. Bravo...Do you know how much money we can save as a society if we eliminate all the public and private schools and Universities? I wonder how you imparted your bare expressions on this forum?...must be those spirits (hope it is not the bottle kind!) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27, KJV). What does this mean? And why I should take this statement perhaps by a story teller to be true? and is this your science? I also say that TM is Hinduism, pure and simple. If you don't believe me, you can take the Hindus' word for it. Come to Eastern Philosophy section, and let us debate on that As you know, Hinduism results in a high quality of life. India has by far the highest standard of living in the world (tongue-in-cheek). So you want me to assume, that the corollary is true. That is USA has by far the highest standard of living. USA has majority Christians. Therefore Christianity results in high quality of life. Bravo...again you out did yourself! In another thread, I posted that US consumption of psychotropic legal drugs are heading to$45 billion. According to government estimate, the feel good non-legal drugs are at $100 to$200 billion per year. The divorce rate is 63.5%. Two million people (mostly Christians) are in jail. USA by far has the biggest mental healthcare in the world (another $150 Billion). Date rapes are rampant in University campuses with the aid of GHB. If I keep going, I will fill up the page. But of course....Christianity results in a high quality of life (tounge-in-cheek - get it!) Actually, TM techniques are yogic techniques which are very effective in making contact with the spirit world. This abuse must stop. I can teach TM, but I do not believe in spirit world. So somebody is smoking something, it aint me! However, very few people have the intelligence, before or after TM, to discern between good and bad where spiritual issues are concerned. Now, for the first time, you said something intelligent. TM, if practiced incorrectly, can cause auto-hallucinations, due to the way brain processes information. That is why you need a teacher. It is like physical therapy. Simple logics can solve that. Interestingly, most people can discern between good and bad for each of the five senses, but in spiritual things, for some reason, everything is discerned as good.Believe it or not, TM can strengthen the belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ, and ones religion including Christianity. People like you and other Christian militants, instead of fighting it, should have embraced it to enhance Christianity. But what can I say, it was not invented by a Christian! so it must be evil. Right? When Saint Peter (I think Peter) went to India, his teaching spread. Now there are a whole lot of Christians in India coexisting with Hindus. No body said, the ideas are alien and let us reject it! And you know what, the high and mighty American Christians look down upon Indian Christians as if they are untouchables! I grew up in a Christian community, I know. Why is that? Sure I can. I'm assuming that Cris is interested in the best possible result for his efforts in life. The path that he has chosen won't give him that.So it is "wrong" from Cris' perspective.How do you "know" A person could go in different directions from that comment, but suffice it to say that his intellect will go downhill from here, if he doesn't change his mind. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. (Isaiah 66:4, KJV).I was told, in USA, there are a lot of brain fried Christians, are you one of those? of course, you will say NO! Just to make the point clear... TM works. Yoga techniques work. Hinduism works. Thank you I say that their practitioners don't know what they work for.Let them judge for themselves. If you never tasted a specific food such as a tomato, how do you know it tastes bad until you try it? They also become insane, commit suicide, etc. And ultimately lose their lives.Hardly, USA imports tons of brain power from India every year. Just look at the computer industry... Actually, we are diametrically opposed. Then it is pointless to argue. As they say, never argue with a FOOL, listeners can not tell which is which Your guru would have you believe that Hinduism accepts and tolerates Christianity, and that Jesus Christ is just an another avatar. My own experience tells me, in Christianity money talks. Christians like you bow down to Japanese because they are the second largest economy. Now going to bow down to China, because they are the next in the economic ladder. But treat Indian Christians like shit because...they are poor!Well I have news for you. For thousands of years everybody was in search of India including Columbus. Every civilization has a rise and fall, it is a cycle. May be India with its home grown Christians and Hindus will teach the world a lesson in real Christianity - the way Jesus meant it to be! Someday - as India enters the Information Age and as has been foretold in the Vedas. Now I understand, what Cris told me, it is a waste of our time to argue with a militant. That is why the fight never stops in mideast. Even GOD could not convince these type of people, so he waited for them to die a natural death in the desert. And I am a mere mortal. Last edited: Aug 17, 2001 15. ### Chagur.Seeker.Registered Senior Member Messages: 2,235 Hey kmguru ... I see that you've learned to use a bit of color in your posts. Congratulations! It almost makes you inane responses seem palatable (but they still leave a bad taste when chewed on). As to what I charge ... nothing. I sincerely feel that knowledge is something that should be shared even though I know full well that many people believe only in charlatans who milk the gullible dry. I guess it all goes back to my hacker days when everyone felt that knowledge should be free. Bye Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! 16. ### kmguruStaff Member Messages: 11,757 Hi, Chagur: Looks like humor is not something you chew on very well. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! That is OK. The fact that you chewed it says that you are brave. And thank you for chewing my colorful work. You did say, I should take flintstones multis ! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Bye Last edited: Aug 17, 2001 17. ### tony1Jesus is LordRegistered Senior Member Messages: 2,279 *Originally posted by kmguru if you become a student of mine, I will teach you the secret answer. * I'm sure you would. However, you offer death, I seek life. I'm not going to be a student of yours. *My rates are somewhat expensive.* Yes, life. I've got only one, so I'm not spending it to buy death. * It must be those Christian militants* Christian militant TMers? Wow, there are three words I'd never have thought to put in a row!! * - what you call them? Born Again?* I don't call them born again. Born again is something you will see for only a short time, unless you change your mind. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, KJV). *You will know, what is knowable by your puny mind. It can only hold so much!* That "puny mind" comment is usually reserved for demons of a relatively high order, relative to zero, that is. *Sorry, I am not in the spirit world, Demons, Spirits, they are alien words to me. I know they exist in Dictionary, but the concept eludes me.* Sure, it does. But it did not escape Maharishi M. Y., and it does not escape other swamis and maharishis. * I wonder how you imparted your bare expressions on this forum?* Simple, I used a computer. *What does this mean?* Doesn't your guru know? *And why I should take this statement perhaps by a story teller to be true?* Do you not know? *So you want me to assume, that the corollary is true. That is USA has by far the highest standard of living.* Does it? In any case, I don't want you to assume that. Starvation is not an issue for many Americans. *USA has majority Christians.* No, Christianity is a minority thing. *legal drugs are heading to$45 billion.*
$163 per person * non-legal drugs are at$100 to $200 billion per year.*$360 to $720 per person *The divorce rate is 63.5%* That's bad. *Two million people (mostly Christians) are in jail.* Checking off "Christian" on a form does not make one Christian. * USA by far has the biggest mental healthcare in the world (another$150 Billion).*
That's your competiton, the medical priesthood.

*Date rapes are rampant in University campuses with the aid of GHB.*
Interesting point.
No mainline universities are Christian, anymore.
Oddly enough, the divinity schools are teaching, what is it? Oh yes, Hinduism and TM practices.
Coincidence? I think not.

* If I keep going, I will fill up the page.*
You would.
Coincidentally, or not, a graph of the increase in those problems you mentioned almost exactly matches the increase of Hindu teaching in the US.

*This abuse must stop.*
My, how hypersensitive we are today.

* I can teach TM, but I do not believe in spirit world. So somebody is smoking something, it aint me!*
Who is accusing you of smoking anything?

*TM, if practiced incorrectly, can cause auto-hallucinations, due to the way brain processes information. That is why you need a teacher. It is like physical therapy. Simple logics can solve that.*
Of course, that begs the question.
How would I know you were taught correctly?
And, how would I know that your guru was taught correctly?

*Believe it or not, TM can strengthen the belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ, and ones religion including Christianity.*
Of course, it would help if those teachings come throught the guru.
Anyway, I'm sure that apostates who still refer to Jesus would, in fact, be strengthened in their beliefs.

*People like you and other Christian militants, instead of fighting it, should have embraced it to enhance Christianity.*
Well, that would make the spread of Hinduism easier, now wouldn't it?

*But what can I say, it was not invented by a Christian! so it must be evil. Right?*
I think you're on to something!

*Now there are a whole lot of Christians in India coexisting with Hindus. No body said, the ideas are alien and let us reject it!*
Of course not.
What's one more god when you have 330 million?

*And you know what, the high and mighty American Christians look down upon Indian Christians as if they are untouchables!*
I sense bitterness.

*I grew up in a Christian community, I know. Why is that? *

I don't know, because you were born there?

*How do you "know"*
Easy.
If Cris wants result X, and he does things that give result Y, then it is wrong.

*]I was told, in USA, there are a lot of brain fried Christians, are you one of those? of course, you will say NO!*
Of course.
You were lied to.

*Thank you*
Don't thank me.
Thank your guru when you're tossed in the lake of fire.

*]Let them judge for themselves.*
Sorry, I'm not as callous as you are.
If I let them judge for themselves, they may curse me for not warning them, when they find out the truth.

* If you never tasted a specific food such as a tomato, how do you know it tastes bad until you try it?*
Let's try something other than a tomato for an example.

Let's take, "jumping off a cliff."

"If you never tried a specific action such as a jumping off a cliff, how do you know it's bad until you try it?"

Now, it sounds like only a loony would say it.

*Hardly, USA imports tons of brain power from India every year. Just look at the computer industry...*
If things were so good in India, why would they come here?

*]My own experience tells me, in Christianity money talks.*
I can't quite tell what your point is with that.

If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
(Job 36:11, KJV).

However, one of God's desires for his people is prosperity.

*Christians like you bow down to Japanese because they are the second largest economy.*
Fat chance.
I don't bow to any economy.

*Now going to bow down to China, because they are the next in the economic ladder.*
Sorry, no again.

*But treat Indian Christians like shit because...they are poor!*
Again, I'm hearing some bitterness.
Make sure you are not blaming Christians for the fact that Hindus made Christianity illegal in India.
I suspect that economic sanctions went along with that.

*Well I have news for you. For thousands of years everybody was in search of India including Columbus.*
Wasn't that when there were more home-grown Christians in India?
And before Christianity was criminalized in 1948?

*May be India with its home grown Christians and Hindus will teach the world a lesson in real Christianity - the way Jesus meant it to be!*
Well, why don't you show the world how it was meant to be?
Rather than carrying a load of bitterness, preaching the gospel will give you greater rewards.

*Someday - as India enters the Information Age and as has been foretold in the Vedas.*
Of course, maybe the Vedas foretold the earlier glory of India.

*Now I understand, what Cris told me, it is a waste of our time to argue with a militant. *
Of course, you've been arguing with yourself.
I can only type my answer after you post yours.

*Even GOD could not convince these type of people, so he waited for them to die a natural death in the desert.*

Here's what God said about that...

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
(1 Corinthians 10:11).

Learn from their example.
Don't die a natural death in the desert, too.

18. ### kmguruStaff Member

Messages:
11,757
Hi Tony:

Thank you for the debate.

"Rather than carrying a load of bitterness, preaching the gospel will give you greater rewards." You are right. Here it goes:

If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
(Job 36:11, KJV).

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
(1 Corinthians 10:11).

AMEN

Bye

19. ### tony1Jesus is LordRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
2,279
*Originally posted by kmguru
Thank you for the debate.
*
What?
We haven't even gotten started yet.

*If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
(Job 36:11, KJV).

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
(1 Corinthians 10:11).
*
Good stuff.

It would be a shame if you miss out on those rewards after preaching like that.

After all, if Jesus is not your Lord, you can preach like you just did, miss the point completely and have someone else reap the benefits.

20. ### kmguruStaff Member

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11,757
Jesus is my Lord's Son.
I hope you are reaping the benefits. Are you?
Dont you worry about me, my Lord will take care of me. My Lord did send his only Son...remember and remember well...