Presidental lying

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Xmo1, Sep 29, 2017.

  1. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    so the media seems to be asking if its legal for a president to lie

    this is a precedent, and as such the incumbents are shielded until such time as they are educated to the ruling

    so hint make the ruling, and educate the president, duh
     
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  3. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Hint: care to provide a link to what you're talking about, or even just provide more by way of explanation - just for those of us not too up to speed on the US scene?
     
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  5. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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  7. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    It is legal for a president to lie, except under oath, as in a court room. Trump lies so much, that it is very hard to tell if he is not lying.
     
  8. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    Make it illegal, or softer - subject to reprimand, for public officials to lie when addressing the public. That is a translation of my post. So if the President or any other public officer lies to the public, including during the process of campaigning, that person will be subject to public review and reprimand for lying regardless of other circumstances. That means knowingly presenting or displaying false information, knowingly lying by omission, and so on.

    As part of the labor force we are all subject to this type of reprimand by our employers. Public officials should be out in front of that possibility. The military already has its own laws against lying and misrepresenting information, and military leaders are held to the same code. If there is such a thing for public officials - someone is not doing their job. Codification and enforcement of this idea would cut by at least half the time, money, and aggravation caused by the lies and misinformation presented to the public. The changes could be easily classified as reducing fraud, waste, and abuse in government, but would as well positively affect other areas of the social system.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
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  9. Xelor Registered Member

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    Well, yes, it is illegal for the POTUS to lie.

    • 18 U.S. Code § 1001 - Statements or entries generally
    • a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—

      (1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
      (2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
      (3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;

      shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.

     
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  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Only about "material facts", and only "knowingly". Cue a parade of lawyers.

    Clinton, for example, was not concealing a "material" fact in the matter of his impeachment, and was rightly exonerated.
    He did of course lie about material facts in other matters.

    But it's strange to see Clinton used as the exemplar of Presidential lying, when the flat out known material falsehoods of - say - W, or Reagan (although good luck proving he knew anything about anything), were so much more blatant and did so much more direct harm.

    Clinton was slippery and clever with the innuendo - W just flat out lied. And the consequences were disastrous.

    W, for example, is on film declaring officially and explicitly for the record that all phone surveillance of American citizens done by his administration was by warrant from a judge, shortly after he had signed by hand an executive order specifically authorizing specifically warrantless wiretaps and phone surveillance of specifically American citizens - an order he had requested and received legal opinion justifying, from his Attorney General's office, precisely because of its provisions for warrantless surveillance of Americans.

    W, April 20, 2004:
    Now that is Presidential lying.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
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  11. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    Thank you Xelor.
     
  12. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    Problem: Who is going to bring him to trial?
     
  13. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    A sitting president can't be charged right? But just or fun: Larry Ellison? He's the only billionaire besides Bill Gates who has a database large enough to hold all the evidence. Most of the others would have conflicted interests.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Let us please consider: President Donald Trump's lying has fallen so far through the looking glass that White House Chief of Staff General John Kelly (USMC [ret.]) could be witnessed in the Press Room, today, attacking a Gold Star widow.

    The dignity of the White House is more than sullied. It will require a generation to air out the stench.
     
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  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And almost certainly lying to do it: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog...um=feed&utm_campaign=Feed: tpm-news (TPMNews)
     
  16. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    And....he's just done it again, by tweeting a load of lies about an increase in UK figures for reported crime, insinuating, quite falsely, that this is due to muslim terrorism. In fact a lot of it is due to greater diligence by the police in reporting, though there do seem to be some real increases, though not anything at all to do with muslims, obviously.

    This is not only a lie, but a targeted lie, intended to bolster myths among US citizens (who understandably are unlikely to check the detail of such things for themselves) about muslims and foment prejudice and hatred against them. It is absolutely disgusting that a serving President of the United States, of all countries, would stoop to such dirty tricks. The fantastic thing about this is that nobody is any longer surprised. They just shrug: it's the new normal.

    It comes to something when even Dubya comes out of the woodwork to make statesmanlike remarks about the damage being done to US civilisation.
     
  17. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    Little secret: Presidents are temporary. They don't sit at missile silos for three months on end looking at a big as bomb. So nobody tells them do. They have to figure it out, and honestly, its pretty shocking for anyone given even the tip of the iceberg briefing. Some of the 'whew' de-briefings a President will never experience. The people in charge won't let you down. They know stuff.

    Abiogenesis, which may have happened in space like most everything else. Since then life begets life. There is life, and everything else. It's that simple. So lies and drama? Enjoy it. Enjoy life. It doesn't last forever.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017

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