Portland, Ore

Discussion in 'Politics' started by mathman, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    The use of federal troops in Portland, opposed by the mayor and the governor is an ominous foreboding. When Hitler took over Germany in 1933 (duy chosen as Chancellor) his first steps were to outlaw the Communist party and get the Reichstag to grant him dictatorial power.
     
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  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    how silly
    comparing the usa to the weimar republic is like comparing whales to snails
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    And it will be until it isn't.
     
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  7. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, like comparing Trump to a compassionate, reasonable, sane human being. Totally silly.
     
  8. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Trump is looking for an excuse to declare martial law... even if he has to manufacture it himself.
     
  9. Thus Spoke Registered Member

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    If the destruction of government property is calculated to influence, intimidate, coerce, or to retaliate against government conduct, isn’t that considered a federal crime of terrorism?
     
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Of course not. By that yardstick any demonstration at all is "terrorism", since its objective is to influence government.
     
  11. Thus Spoke Registered Member

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    You might want to look that one up.

    “When property damage is undertaken for the purpose of intimidating a government or society at large, it may be categorized by government agencies as terrorism.”
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Definitely proud of our "terrorism" between 1775-1783.
     
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  13. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    You might want to look up the difference between influencing and intimidating.
     
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  14. Thus Spoke Registered Member

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    Brilliant idea.

    Thanks!
     
  15. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    In the past vandalism was considered a local crime, to be handled by the local police.
     
  16. Thus Spoke Registered Member

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    Are the local police handling it?

    Is arson considered vandalism?

    Who protects federal buildings?
     
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    have you talk to anyone who was there? i have. and what they said is this is literally how it starts. we are seeing the fall of the republic and the rise of fascism. and you and yours are cheering it
     
  18. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Nobody is saying the USA today is like the Weimar republic. What is being pointed out is that the techniques of authoritarian demagogues have similarities and that it pays us to be alert to the lessons of history. Hitler whipped up fear of communists (e.g.Reichstag fire) and used it to impose authoritarian rule. Many other would-be autocrats have followed the same route. It's a classic way of turning a democracy into an authoritarian state.

    These goons appear to be intent on making the riots worse and turning them from a BLM protest into something with more of the appearances of an "antifa" war - which Trump is already trying to capitalise on with his campaign ads. And now he wants to start the same process in other cities where there have been disturbances.

    What should give anyone particular cause for concern is Trump is imposing these goons against the wishes of the local civic and state authorities, who believe they can manage better without this "help".

    That is not normal.
     
  19. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    It's particularly telling that the troops he's sending against political opponents - in their own jurisdictions!! - are not regular, legally empowered police of any kind, have no known allegiance, no chain of command through state or national military authority, no constitutional constraints or enforceable rules of conduct. Whatever colour their shirts may be, they're essentially a private army. At some stage of escalation, unless the governors are prepared to cede their autonomy and accept occupation, the state police/militia will have to move against them. And then the national armed forces will have to choose: defend the government from the people or the people against the government.
    None of this has anything to do with Hitler and the situation is nothing like 1930's Germany. For one thing, Trump is incapable of a conviction or ideal of any kind. He can repeat slogans and hold grudges, but his actions are not directed toward any outcome beyond his being The Most Important Man on Earth. It doesn't matter how many suffer and die, what burns, what's destroyed - just so long as he doesn't have to leave the White House. That's more reminiscent of Louis XV than any modern dictator.
     
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  20. Thus Spoke Registered Member

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  21. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Who set fire? That's the central question. The people in that video are just milling about, gawking; certainly not terrifying anyone. Not even the dim figure beating on some inanimate object that's already been rendered harmless.
    It may be terrorism or a simple crime; in either case, the person/ persons/ entity responsible should be apprehended and tried in a court of law, not dragged off to a secret bunker and tortured/rewarded, depending on which side they're working for.
     
  22. Thus Spoke Registered Member

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    They're not just milling about. The people in the videos are setting fires.

    A simple crime?

    If you knowingly start a fire to an official government office, you are breaking federal arson laws. It's a federal offense. It’s arson in the first degree and it is a felony.

    "The desire of the Congress to protect Federal property is clearly reflected in section 1361 of title 18, United States Code, which authorizes a penalty of up to 10 years’ imprisonment for the willful injury of Federal property."

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/presiden...s-statues-combating-recent-criminal-violence/

    Section 1361 is a designated "Federal crime of terrorism" if the offense is "calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  23. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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