Pathetic Pathos: The Incel Hour

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Not sure your point

    But since relates to my post to X what I am requesting is not to request a change "because it will (generally it doesn't) in behaviour"

    I believe more in the build a better mouse trap model to change behaviour

    As a male nurse, and midwife, to boot I can speak with some knowledge about the views from the other side

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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Absolutely. But the environment someone grows up in is a high barrier to climb.
     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Perhaps the only observation worth making is no one wins and kids start with a major set back.
    Still all your fancy talk won't deprive me of a few executions...they are good for public moral...the crowd transfers their hate of themselves driven by religious screwuping to the criminal being tortured, or sorry humanely executed....justice is done and people feel good about themselves...it's a win win.
    No a simple cull...nothing personal.
    No torture. Just humane public executions, perhaps with celebrates pushing the button. Nothing radical.
    Indeed. However one hopes that brutal control of the populace gives one certain entitelement. If there are problems it will be someone's fault...they must die...
    Ask that question after we get a few hangings under our belt. Seems meaningless to discuss it now.
    Let's have a few over kills to worry about...let's forget the most terrible role woman have endured. Invariably mere possessions..how primative..just look at a Hollywood turn out..see how many possessions you can count.
    I agree. It should be optional for children to witness the execution of their patent for domestic violence...personally I think they should watch and burn into their brain that domestic violence is way uncool.
    Yes it's hard to work out who should be executed.
    It's the competition thing.
    Pity folk don't respect losers. I tried but nothing happened..did you beat your wife...no never..true then you are a sucess.
    The miserable dogs who beat a woman deserve no air.
    None should be given to them.
    They are too weak and must be recycled.

    Sorry went away and can't think of more to say.
    Alex
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    i think focus on minimizing that set back and then making real factual and ongoing work to recover & re-build.
    however that idea seems to be thrown aside like a dirty old piece of news paper that has no value.
    anyway that whole child services industry is a catastrophe in action being exploited by some who need locking up for ever

    i am curious if you have had the opportunity to personally and privately chat with hard core domestic abusers and abuse victims ?
    i have
    one or two victims i hold dear to my heart forever from the knowledge and wisdom i have received from them. their trust in me and their honesty and thoughts sit like a lovers memory wrapped in my inner soul like a family member.
    obliviously not soo many of the abusers, the very very few i have whom were recovered had quite a lot of insight for me to learn from.
    the abuse victims i have be-friended and chatted to personally and privately have also been a wealth of information on ideas and thought processes to help combat various types of mental abuse and domestic abusive frame works.

    not that i can ever talk about such things and i would never admit to having such conversations or knowing such things in real life.

    sorry if i have posted any words that are triggers for anyone
    remember trolls may be reading this looking to exploit a weakness they see in you by what you post or reply with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  8. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    They are sane. They plan the murder, in quite some detail. They often involve quite a bit of stalking beforehand. There is a lot of premeditation involved.

    Like the guy who stalked his ex girlfriend, followed her when she dropped their daughter off at daycare, rammed her car off the road and into someone's front yard, then got out of the car and beat her head in with a metal plate as she lay bleeding from the car rolling off the road. He planned it. Just like the guy who stalked his ex wife (who had taken all reasonable precautions to keep herself safe from him), across the state of Queensland, and followed her into a McDonalds and shot her in the middle of the restaurant. He planned it, in minute detail.

    In the greater majority of these murders, the women had sought help from police.

    These men commit these crimes because the women they want, do not want them. And here's the kicker..

    After these murders occur, the actions of the woman often come into play. The focus is on how she left. His violence takes a back seat.

    How many times have you heard the media comment on how he was a loving family man, when such murders occur? The attention automatically turns towards the woman.. Subtle questions about what she may have done to drive him to it.

    Take this as a prime example:

    Despite what our father did on 19 July 2016, it seemed easier and more preferable for the public and media to rationalise what he did, and try to ‘understand’ how a ‘good man’ can kill his wife and children, rather than consider that this man’s risk was ignored by the community and society. Even after the murders, many still gripped to trivial instances where our father might have seemed OK, rather than confront the undeniable revelation that he was never a good man.

    In every media report, there was speculation that the prospect of divorce ‘drove’ our father to murder Mum and Charlotte – that our actions were responsible for his choices. It became clear to us as we read the media reports that our society instinctively holds women accountable for men’s actions. In fact, in the majority of the reports, there were helplines for male mental health charities rather than for domestic abuse: demonstrating that our society gives greater significance to men’s feelings than it does to women’s lives
    .​

    That is but one example.

    In Australia, not too long ago, a man killed his wife, two disabled children and ultimately himself after he set up an elaborate system that literally turned the house into a gas chamber. And the media went on for weeks about how he was a loving father. Speculation about his committing the worst of the worst crimes against his family because both of his kids were disabled, questions about his wife were subtly raised, at first, the focus again turned to the children's disabilities and the hint that perhaps she had been in on it as well.. Then attention turned to her - she was leaving him - it was only much later that people found out he had been having an affair with a 17 year old girl in the Philippines and had told the very people who described him as a loving husband and father, that while he saw other women, it would never be acceptable for his wife to move on after their separation.

    Are these people sane?

    Yes.

    Using mental illness is an excuse. The greater majority of these murders are committed by men who cannot accept that these women rejected them.

    While I do not agree with executions or capital punishment for men who commit such crimes, I do believe that the police should have better tools on hand to deal with people who threaten, abuse and violate before it escalates to murder.
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    They are not sane. The fact that the law may excuse them in effect for not being sane is an annoyance but we can not treat such delusional thinking as sane ..but even not sane I see no reason to excuse anything...bad behaviour needs to be culled irrespective of the sadness of some unfortunates who don't have much intellectual capacity...their problem...can't function in the compassionate world . Too bad..just die. Fit the decency mild or die.
    But to say such behaviour is sane because it may be calculated and planed does not make it sane..clever and calculating perhaps but never ever sane...to suggest they are sane endorses their totally screwed views ..they are not sane their standards are not sane. Calculating does not make them sane .. another legal standard needs introduction .a recognition that although insane were nevertheless capable and that capability reflects culpability. Hang the crazy calculating dog if he has killed anyone..end of story. Not fair!?? Lots of things are not fair...but let's make sure bad behaviour has no escape from retribution and culling is the prime directive..the main mob needs to be protected regulating the good inner core is not easy but anything outside be harder..forget individual rights if it stands in the way if normality. Nothing radical just focused on the main body of humans
    Alex
    Alex
    Alex
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  10. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Aren't you just perpetuating the cycle of violence?

    Let me ask you this.

    Is hatred a sign of insanity? And to what extent?

    To me, suggesting these men are somehow insane or mentally ill, is providing them with an out. An excuse for their ideology.

    And it still fails to address the underlying cause.

    Just saying they aren't sane is not going to fix it. Nor is killing them.

    Their behaviour is problematic, dangerous and deadly. But what drives it? It's not insanity.

    It's society.

    So marching them to the gallows will do sweet fuck all in fixing it. The problem will still exist. You're just marching them to their deaths after they have been caught, without addressing the actual causes..

    What you are proposing is essentially adding a level of punishment to an already crowded field of ownership culture.

    Let me ask you this..

    How do you think simply killing the perpetrators will alter society's perception of women as commodities? Do you think this will be a magical cure to ensure that men view women as human beings, with rights equal to their own?
     
  11. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    9,253
    These types of men aren’t insane, although a few might be. They’ve just learned to hate women, and view women as owing them sex and anything else they wish. Misogyny is not a variation of insanity, no more than racism is. It’s a form of hate and I’m not quite sure how to eradicate it.

    Jordan Peterson, a modern day “philosopher” and controversial political activist, who prides himself on trying to empower men who have issues with women, has been noted recently as saying our culture should “enforce monogamy and marriage” (arranged marriages?) and this would somehow curb the violent tendencies of some single men, who would stop being violent if they are getting laid on a regular basis.

    Can’t make this stuff up.
     
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  12. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    9,253
    You might be surprised to note that there are many atheist men who are misogynists and sexists. It always comes down to a choice, how you treat another human being.
     
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  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,888
    The line came up in a New York Times article, and he subsequently tried to walk it back, what he came up with was, basically, societal shaming of women into heterosexual marriage and sexual provision, a reiteration of her existential purpose in service of his pleasure. It's why I do the Candy-Belushi bit, which is about the lightest touch I can give it. Two doughy cops wrapped in towels, glistening in a warm, moist locker room, discussing sex toys because the married one is distressed by his wife's lack of sexual passion and performance.

    The more common version is a couple tired men at "happy hour", commiserating over how their wives are cold-fish nags raising the kids wrong.

    As near as I can tell, that's what Doc P is describing by his notion of enforced monogamy.
     
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  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    I see it more as culling.
    Perhaps. Thinking of killing another from hatred is perhaps a sign, if it's not culling of course.
    The fact that they may find a get out let's leave for a moment. In my view as a generalisation domestic violence is insane, killing a woman is insane.
    Change the law so insane acts bring culling.
    You overlook the fact that they will never reoffend and their mates down the pub may get the message that society is doing its utmost to stamp out domestic violence.
    Sure study the situation and address any other aspect ... You may need to edit the bible, you may need to send a message to Hollywood that folk making inappropriate movies will find it not worthwhile...
    One woman a week..let's at least cull one man a week...the offenders..the ones killing...
    I think it is. If you think you can own or control another if you think killing them because they broke your heart etc...to me that is insane. Cull them.
    We could at least try it for say three years and look at the numbers, if it does not seem to be working we increase the punishment.
    Addressing the causes etc of each case will go on as I suspect happens now.
    I do think early religious training could be addressed as that is where the entitlement belief starts. But there are so many places where that notion is reinforced in subtle ways...but I believe religion may be the key. Certainly I have experience that suggests that.
    When at the Family Court, we were under constant call out for bomb scares, when I was on holiday one went off below where I sat on the level below. Over time many judges were killed, blown up or shot...those killers need to be culled.
    I think you could present the deal in a way that you will effect change.
    Think DUI...the campaigne is working because of enforcement attitudes are changing...they would change faster if you made extreme DUI a capital offence.
    You don't have to look hard where you find an offender reoffends...a terrible situation when their crime is murder..and if nothing else capital punishment would see a number of victims alive today...think of the message the legal system sends to a criminal...do you think a couple of years puts them off??? Cull them no reoffending so you potentially save more lives than you take...and you send a message..do it you die.
    Alex
     
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    No it would not surprise me.
    Sure it's a choice...or is it?
    If you are told from the first day you could listen that there is a god and that god gave you everything including woman etc. How do you think you would determine your actions ..sure some have the sense to realise you don't take everything in the good book as valid...but you only have to look to find entitelement often comes from religious belief.
    As to insane, maybe I should call them crazy, or morons etc to take off the table their condition may give them a get out of jail card.

    Alex
     
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
  17. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    3,269
    Right, 'cuz it's not like the potential efficacy of capital punishment for a deterrent to crime has ever been studied, nor has a plea of "insanity" ever been used to legally exonerate a perpetrator... Neverminding the fact that when attitudes are largely embraced by a majority of the populace, they're generally not regarded as "insane," even when many concede that they are delusional.

    Seriously, this is not helpful. You're just tossing shit out there, without even bothering to acknowledge that there are libraries of data on the very subjects. Nor are you bothering to consider the complex underlying etiologies--which extend well beyond mere exposure to "religion" (which has already been addressed--repeatedly).
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    I can't disagree really.
    What is your plan?
    Alex
     
  19. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    tend to avoid reading those articles.
    i do read the ones that appear to look like classic schizophrenia stalking by a late teen early 20s as that is my area of interest for wider application mental health learning inside a changeable format of cognitive development.

    that aside, yes i see the victim shaming culture
    carried out and normalised by world leaders, business leaders, church leaders etc etc...
    i see it clearly.

    statistically the 3rd contact by the man with the victim after a separation where the woman has left is something close to a 70% rate of homicide
    the restraining order process simply has no financial weight behind it to force government agency's(including judges) to force the changes without some due penalty)

    however...
    co-dependant abusive relationships Vs incel/Stalker homicide is quite different.
    considering the potential number of certain types of people reading this i wont get any more specific.

    i think incel is equal to slavery as a psychopathic modality
    however that type of information is of no real use to the wider public.

    when the women has sought refuge for separation the 3rd contact by the man has a close to 80% result in homicide
    no NRA giving free guns & training to solo mothers huh i wonder why.


    indian
    bangladeshi
    pakistani
    a few african countrys...
    it is common for the man to plan the murder with some family members
    i have (no idea how many i have read)read plenty of reports about indian familys murdering and torturing the wife.
    Most of the african countrys cover up the cultural process of torture & murder of a wife/child that is not behaving.
    the behaviour is hidden inside Islamic religion as a right to religious authority and control.
    like terrorists using a religion to hide behind.
    no different i suspect

    however
    if you wish to stop the boat from sinking, you need to start plugging the holes
    much like the illegal migration issue using cultural genocide in poor areas to exploit weakness in government policy
    while installing a blood thirsty revenge natured culture as the poor peoples answer to lack of money for state services.
    the reality is, it is extremists exploiting the poor to use as cannon fodder.
    either the multi cultural mandate of compulsory law is applied, or it is not.

    i have met and lived with jekyll and hyde type personalities
    i have socialised with them
    done recreational drugs with them
    listened quietly to them bragging
    showing off
    feeling ashamed
    etc etc ...

    it comes back to the saving the boat from sinking issue
    e.g do you give the death penalty to women who groom girls for men ?
    look at that woman who admitted doing it for epstien
    (all the women who sell their own children and women who trade girls for men etc...)
    why is she not serving a life sentence ?

    Ghislaine Maxwell
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...adam-groomed-14-year-old-model-sex-slave.html

    why wont she do it again ?
    is she sane ?
    is she a sane mother is she a sane father ...

    what are we using for our definition of sanity vs atrocity ?
    is "evil" an application to appease the guilt of the Pietas observer ?

    irony ?
    or cultural acceptance ?
    whos morals are going to be used and how flat is the playing field going to be hammered to ?


    do you confront the coal face with ideological mandates of legal contract ?
    (i am postulating a thought rather than asking you such an open ended question[much with all my questions in this post do not feel i am expecting an answer i am posing the question to a public position not a personal question])

    is usually the song played when the man executes the children and then their mother.

    the song of
    has nothing to do with the man or the family
    it is all about the friends and neighbors selling out their guilt

    how much privacy should a mother have vs how much pro active guilt should a single man living next door carry

    how many men are asked to defend and splain how they are going to balance a work life relationship while being a good father & provide reliable hours of attendance to their employer ?
    normalized sexist guilt manipulation as a cultural normalcy

    i do not wish to digress to much from my main (specificity)point you have addressed.

    the sane/not sane issue

    is the "not sane" issue also wrapped in cultural guilt to declare there should be no control ?
    or !
    is it a position of deliberate manipulation & exploitation of the poor and working class by directly removing funding from mental health services & using those situations to widen the gap between the states accountability(more so those in positions of leadership and authority) to recognise as such, and allocate appropriate funding ...

    what profit is there in mental health services ?


    is there any psychiatric private prisons in the usa ?

    spiking the pot i think it is called
    or spiking the ball or loading dice ....



    an excuse that delivers what ?

    sanity ?

    how do they benefit by being defined mentally insane so they need to be locked up until they are cured ?



    you see this is the kicker
    "where is the money?" is the pre-loaded next question used as an excuse to not act.

    police have not got enough time
    and they dont have any money

    police used as a patsy by psychopaths ...
    the question is "why play that game?"
    you can see it is designed to lose from every angle

    conceptually ... here is a thought to ponder for you in the way people use the
    "insanity is just an excuse to avoid real punishment"


    what are they trading off by asserting that as the only real possible path and process ?
    violence ?
    bloody revenge ?
    lack of caring ?

    how do they benefit by knowingly stalling the process ?

    they are selling out their own moral accountability by asserting there is no such thing as sanity and morality
    cultural dogma ?
    mix, half n half

    they dont want to go forward but they dont want to be the one paying for it when it all goes backwards.
    american liberal conservative morality
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  20. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    what is the religious fall out and cultural fall out from defining such acts as insane ?

    who is laundering their dirty morality through victims by asserting that the victims lifes are being sanely enacted upon by a person ?

    what is the trade off ?
    money ?
    if the person is judged insane because they are a serial killer or mass murderer, do they avoid American revenge ?

    who is being sold ?
    the abuser or the victim ?
    the victim is being exploited as a route to profit
    if the abuser is defined as insane how do you manipulate profit ?
    whos religion will you use to define them sane or insane ?

    does "evil" contradict the religous nature of sane & insane ?
    if so if no...
    why is there no clear delineation ?

    effectively most adults have the intellectual minds of children or trouble teens
    and these REAL questions are ones they are incapable of answering because they have never developed to the point of that reality.
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    And where does it end?

    Actually, the bigger question is from where does it start?

    You don't see that as hypocritical?

    I find it astonishing that you do not see the hypocrisy in your argument.

    Domestic violence killing is insane... Killing a woman is insane.. But "culling" would not be insane?

    Would this "culling" only be targeted at men who kill? What about women who kill? Female abusers? Same sex couple abusers?

    You are still not addressing the cause of such forms of violence, nor are you addressing the attitude itself.

    Because the death penalty is so effective as a deterrent, right?

    https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/d...nalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence/
    https://www.amnestyusa.org/a-clear-scientific-consensus-that-the-death-penalty-does-not-deter/
    https://phys.org/news/2018-10-myths-death-penalty.html

    And let me ask you this.

    Their mate has just been 'culled' by the Government for domestic violence or killing his spouse/partner, or for killing a woman because she would not sleep with him..

    Do you think they are going to sit in the pub and go 'oof, yeah, we better stop abusing our partners or thinking about killing women, because we have the death penalty now'? Or do you think they are going to sit in that pub and fester about how the system protects the fucking bitches and it simply consolidates their ideology about women, leading to an increased risk of violence from those mates of the culled fellow?

    Because that's all it takes?

    It's not just Hollywood or the Bible. It's an issue of every society and culture, religious and non religious alike, throughout history.

    Because this will make it stop?

    It's a rhetorical question, because we know it will not make it stop. So what then? Just keep killing more?

    Ah, so now we 'cull' for thinking about killing as well?

    You are still failing to address the cause of such crimes.

    How would you increase the punishment?

    You are killing them. How does one increase the punishment from that?

    And if it goes down to one woman killed a fortnight, that's an improvement in your opinion?

    What if it changes from killing women to simply abusing or maiming them? Improvement?

    It does not happen now.

    Imagine what would happen if the cause was addressed?

    Why are you so hung up on the religious aspect?

    Do you think the incel movement and the general apathy towards women is driven by religion?

    The fact that it existed before any of these religious texts were written should tell you what, exactly?

    All you would be doing would be placing further blame on women. Not to mention women who are abused, or victims of incels (women who are stalked, harassed, abused), would feel less inclined to come forward to report their abusers if they know that the punishment will be "the culling".....

    Men will blame women even more, for what they would see as a system that is geared towards favouring women - remember, men who commit such crimes already believe this, so you would be buying into that ideology.

    The DUI campaign has been geared more towards prevention.

    Not punishment.

    They realised that it was more effective to try to prevent then to campaign to punish drink drivers.

    And research has shown that it's not one size fits all. Different demographics and communities and regions respond to different campaigns:

    Hmm, for some reason, it won't allow me to change the link to my usual blue colour.. Ah well..

    Anywho, are you also suggesting that making DUI a capital crime would effect faster change? Despite the tonnes of research that shows the death penalty is not a deterrent....?

    Again, capital punishment has been found to not be a deterrent.

    And once again, your solution, if you will, will only drive more hatred and blame towards women, meaning more violence towards us. You would not be saving lives, because you would not be tackling what drives these crimes to begin with, nor would you be tackling the attitudes towards women. You would just be creating, or enhancing a culture, where these men already exist in blaming women for all that ails them..
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    I will be free mid next week.
    I always feel left out. It was my sincere attempt to be hypocritical.
    Any bad behaviour is cullable.
    I know what you are saying I am just frantic for some real action.
    You have a good point..cull them also.
    Why would I be?
    To a degree. Addressing anything holy that proclaims entitelement should be addressed.
    That was humour...mine addmittedly so I can understand why others may not think it funny.
    I thought blaming religion is as to some degree addressing the cause...Hollywood's part perhaps...
    Reducing numbers would be a good start but frankly I would aim for no woman killed...maybe that is unrealistic.
    What if we just get tugger and see if we can turn the tide.
    Extend culling to those who raise one finger.

    Sorry must go Bells. I will get back to replying later to your wonderful post.

    Alex
     
  23. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Alex

    This is a really important issue for me, for a variety of reasons.

    And if your sole intent here is to push a line of 'killing' or "culling", then I am not interested in continuing this discussion with you. Primarily because your solution will only make things worse for victims and potential victims, but also because you are simply pushing more violence to end violence, without addressing the cause of the violence itself.

    You seem to be fixated on religion and Hollywood to a lesser extent, without recognising that religion and the film industry or Hollywood, if you will, is simply a representation and reflection of society's attitudes.

    Worse still, your whole culling argument is also a part of ownership culture - whereby women are deemed weak and any who harm them must be killed, because women must be protected - while disregarding the complex emotional issues surrounding domestic violence as a prime example.

    Instead of addressing what drives incels and to a different degree, domestic violence and abuse, as well as sexual violence, you seem to be applying one broad brush, while ignoring the complexities..

    What you propose will result in even more hatred and violence towards women.

    But what is really a turn off is that you seem so flippant about it. Not to mention you seem to be very Western centric in how to address this. Misogyny and the failure to recognise that women are human beings with equal rights exists in all societies, in all countries and cultures, religious and non religious alike. Addressing it coincides with empowering women to overcome a generational issue. Simply going 'meh, just cull them all', is simply ensuring that women continue to be treated as commodities and will continue to be pushed into a little box of how society views us.
     

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