Obama's Healthcare Reform...Good Strategy!

The Military? Oh waits that right we lost world war II, I'm sure if we had had a corporate military of mercenaries we would have totally beaten hiltar, we have the most deregulated military today with more mercenaries hired then soldiers and look at what a wonderful job they are doing now!

Or how about the FBI, why not privatize them? Oh I got it lets privatize the FDA its not likely they can get any more bought out by drug companies!

And why is it that the federal governments of other countries are running circles around ours when it comes to social benefits? Why is it so many evil socialized medical systems serving medical care that on average is blowing away our godly privatized system? Why can't the US federal government work, is it that we have a political party (republicans) bent on making sure it fails?

I don't think many of use advocate that. I think we would rather prefer select items be socialized because there privatization has been unsuccessful or would be an atrocity.

 

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Now that's a major joke ....and even moreso since just recently the US Postal Service has been talking about cutting services, raising rates, firing workers, cutting back all kinds of things ...just to keep from going bankrupt!!

Check google and you'll be amazed if you think the post office is a successful operation.

Baron Max

 

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People keep saying that, yet there are numerous horror stories about the level of medical care in many of those nations with socialized medicine. Why?

And when the wealthy of many of those nations want good medical care, why do they travel to the USA to get it?

Whatever the reason ...you're one of those that's touting the wonders and beauty of all the federal controls and operations, so you tell me.

If the fed gov is so fuckin' bad at getting anything done, why would you want it in control of the medical care in the nation? Does that make any fuckin' sense to you?

Okay, so then show me any such gov operations that have so successful and viable that causes you to want the gov to control and operate the medical care in the USA.

Remember, y'all are the ones touting the wonders of gov medical care ....so show me your evidence that supports your avid desires for it.

Baron Max

 

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Gee and like that doesn't happen in the private sector? Quick somebody should tell GM that they are in private industry and they cannot go bankrupt, close plants and retail outlets!!!

Overall I have no problems with the service and price rendered by the US Postal service.

 

Agreed. But, Joe, you're the one touting the fed gov as so much better at running the medical care system, what's your examples to show how it's so much better?

Being deep in debt and going slowly bankrupt doesn't bother you any?

Baron Max

 

You don't get it Baron. The government is already running healthcare, and they need to change they way it is being run.

 

because nothing perfect. Besides though horror stories don't compare with the ones that come out of our privatize medical system, like having not having enough money to re-attach limbs, ejecting patients that can no longer pay on to the street, needless surgery, a system based on profitable treating of patients instead of less profitable curing, etc, etc. I'll take long lines and mediocre service any day over access to no service or service based around ripping me off!

Because they can pay for the best doctors in the world, which most of us American can't! What irony, the best doctor in the world come to America to get rich by having clients from all over the world, there only requirement is huge gobs of money up front, which most Americans don't have!

I just want socialized medicine not socialized everything. Surprise for you but the is a spectrum between capitalism and socialism and any position in between does not mean a slippery slope to one side or the other.

Because privatized medicine has proven its self even crappier at getting things done! Beside I never said it was "fucking bad" at "getting anything done" I quite clearly showed it can get a lot done, the problems is endemic only to the USA filled with politically inactive citizens and republicans, we fix those problems and the US federal government could work a lot better.

I thought I did before, what you could not read my last post, I notice you did not quote those parts, perhaps you have extremely selective reading and refuse literally see any counter evidence.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html

 

compared to the private attempts at postal service its an outstanding success.

 

Go Obama!

 

Well it depends on the amount of control you are thinking of. As far as I understood it current plans are not to force medical care or insurance into complete state ownership but instill regulations.
Now if we talk about that level the majority of industries probably fall under that category. There are state controlled safety regulations for the production and release of goods in place. The rigid regulations of pharmaceuticals easily come to mind. And despite those the businesses are generally successful. Of course one could argue that those businesses would have a better margin without the regulation, though of course it would be the patient that would have a problem then.

And regarding the quality, my recent personal experience with the US system (anecdotical though they are) do not really let me feel that I got any advantages for paying roughly double the amount that I did in Germany. Quite the contrary. Incidentally a colleague of mine is going to leave the country because there was no way of getting an affordable insurance due to a possible (actually not yet diagnosed, only suspected) precondition.

 

Yes Baron has a very selective memory. It is the best memory dittoism can buy. But getting back to the topic at hand. The US federal government does a great job of funding and sponsoring primary research in virtually all areas. It has done a great job with NASA and advancing sciences.

I think a lot of folks confuse state and local government with Federal government. I think most experiences with state government come in the form of unemployment office or the Department of Motor Vehicles. And I don't think there is a more customer unfriendly place than the department of motor vehicles in any state...especially Republican dominated states.

As pointed out previously, given we have at least an average president, the organs of the Federal government generally function well...antics of congress exempted.

 

You are quite correct CharonZ. The pharmaceutical firms will be challenged in that they have sweet heart deals with the Federal government which basicly amount to a blank check. They can and do charge the government what ever they desire for medicine they sell to the US government....all courtesy of the George II and his Republican Congress. That little perk will disappear with or without major changes to the healthcare system now that we have an honest president and a Democratic Congress.

And you bring up a good point, governments with far fewer resources than the United States are providing socialized healthcare to their citizens and the citizens are in general very happy with their healthcare system. From what I have seen and read, they are far better than anything here in the US.

People who would like to be entrepenures are forced to stay with an employer because they simply cannot get nor afford healthcare insurance outside the work place. I think that is a shame all around...and all to protect vested interests in the healthcare establishment.

 

The other private mail services (UPS, FedEx, etc) are part of the reason that the US Postal Service is going bankrupt! ...they can't compete.

Baron Max

 

Joe, you talk up a big game, yet you haven't given one single bit of evidence, in the form of examples, that the US fed gov can do ANYTHING better and more efficient and cheaper than the private sector.

All talk is what got Ol'whatshisname elected, and you can talk all you want, but I think you should at least show some guts and provide some examples of this wonderous and efficient control that you keep touting!

Baron Max

 

I notice you keep saying the US government because you and I know that other government can and have done things better the private enterprise, why is it the US government sucks so badly, Oh I know because we have a political party that represent nearly half of the government that wants it to fail!

Another point is you keep denying when we give you open examples over and over again of things the US government has done that private enterprise can't or won't. The military, the space race, nuclear bombs, the internet was created by darpa while corporate investers laughed at it for decades, all longterm research companies won't touch with a 10 foot pole because there is no profit in it in the short term, only government and academy funded by government will do the research that signifigently changes the world, etc, etc.

Most of all private enterprise controlled medicine is profit based, it profit off of the suffering and pain of people, and to make more profit is to extend their pain and to drop them as quickly as possible if they can't pay, privatized medicine needs significant regulation in order to focus them on cures and prevention not treatments, in order to focus them on helping everyone not just the rich!

 

See? You're now admitting that the US fed gov can't do shit ...yet you're an advocate of the US fed gov taking over the controls of the medical industry??

The military is grossly over budget in most everything they buy or do!
NASA is actually a "private" corp but funded by the fed gov. (it's a bit different) but even so NASA is also grossly overbudget on everything all the time.
Nuclear bombs, as well as all other bombs, are built by private companies under contract to the Defense Department ....the feds provide the money.
Research programs? More funding, but not operations.
Internet? Private companies, some funding by the feds, but little to no operational control.

When a company can't make a profit, there simply ain't much reason for them to exist ....except, of course, the fed gov -- they just borrow more fuckin' money from your grandchildren!

You guys really should get off your idealistic high horses and take a look at the real world. The gov simply can't do shit ....and most surely can't do it efficiently and cheaply. I don't know where you get that, but the gov is the most inefficient thing ever invented, bar none!!

Baron Max

 

You need to do some reading Baron.

 

What are you talking about? I just ratted of many things!

Yeah back during the 1940's it manged to do a whole lot more with a whole lot lest, Roosevelt and Truman were gods. Since Reagan though what a blow of money it has become.

Overbudget? we went to the moon on 6 times its present budget and we are asking them to go back again! That like asking a man to build a fusion reactor with a budget consisting of bags of peanuts! No NASA is seriously under budget for the challenges we give it! NASA contracts out the rockets and spaceships for sure, but what paid for it, the government, the corporations would not have earn a dime, and never would have done it if the government did not pay them, same for medicine: without the government fitting the bill corporations have no problem let people curl up and die.

They were developed by the government, I have nothing against having corporations make stuff, corporations do a great job building stuff, taking care of people they do the opposite of great, something worse then horrible, some like masturbating on the heads of sweat shop children as they make that stuff corporations make so cheaply.

You asked for something government can do better, I'm glad you admitted that I found one, thus destroying your argument that there was nothing government could do better. My argument on the other hand was not so general, I never said the opposite to you that government could do everything better, my argument was specifically that they can do some thing better like health care, not all things.

Yeah so we can have a defense force, advance research, interstate police and law, agencies that maintain the standards of everything, and a retirement pension, why not health care, I rather pay taxes for health care than insurance companies any day!

if your criteria for efficiency is making a profit then of course you are correct, if your criteria is say covering the most people with the most health benefits then you are so very wrong. In fact if your criteria was providing the most health care for the least amount of money you would still be very wrong. For example insurence compaines do not get paid for keeping you healthy, they get paid for the claim they will keep you healthy if you need it, when you need the market economies are very much against you, now its in the insurance companies best interest to maximize profits and drop you for what ever reasons their lawyers can muster, economic evolution breeds insurance companies to charge you as much as possible for the least amount of care when you actually needed it, their only limit is the point were paying their gigantic legal division outweighs screwing people over! Drug companies make the most treating you, no curing you. Hospitals make the most charging you, and if you can't pay it becomes their interest to kick you out. To make economic evolution work for the people we need serious amounts of regulation, regulation you forbid on the grounds of socialization and government ineptitude: I rather take my chances with government ineptitude then cooperate greed when it comes to my medical care!

oh I can think of less efficient things, like anarchism.

 

they do packages when the last time you got a letter from ups?

 

And no that is not true. FEDEX and UPS do not offer postal services. They offer freight and express shipping services. They don't come to you door step every day and deliver mail. FEDEXP and UPS have a very different business model.

The real issue for the Post Office is the very instrument you are now looking at...email and electronic bill payment...in other words technology. The postal service is built on model and time when there was no internet. So increasingly the traditional mail volume is decreasing...that is the problem for the postal service in The United States, not FedEX or UPS.