# Novel methods for propelling a rocket

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Rocket Paul, Sep 23, 2017.

1. ### Rocket PaulRegistered Member

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56
Okay platform 1 the craft and fixed magnet platform 2 free moving rocket engine and magnet.........not securely connected free moving...

3. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

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Basically, there is nothing to be gained from using a "magnetic connection" over a "solid" connection, and a fair bit to be lost doing so. Weight and stability being chief among them.

5. ### Neddy BateValued Senior Member

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I think Rocket Paul is asking whether his own idea does indeed have two platforms rather than the conventional one. I think what he does not realise is that even if he divides one rocket into two separate platforms, the whole system remains one system that we wish to move as a whole. If you are sitting in an office chair with wheels, and you pick your feet up off the ground, you cannot make the office chair move across the room, even if you are holding two very powerful magnets in your hands. There is still no net force transferred to the chair from the magnets.

7. ### Rocket PaulRegistered Member

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56
KIttamaru I have already answered platform 1 is the craft and fixed magnet platform 2 is the engine and free moving magnet.
Neddy sat on the office chair with wheels on holding a strong repelling magnet against fixed magnet on the wall then the chair will move exactly the same as having two separate platforms as in my design,.

8. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

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So what is your question then?

Okay, except that in space, you have no stationary wall to attach the fixed magnet to.
Also, how do you control the lateral movement of chair without touching the ground? How do you propose to stop without touching the ground?

9. ### Rocket PaulRegistered Member

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Kattamaru yes I have answered the question there is two platforms but I want to know how some people are saying no no no and why, so I can move on to the next question.
Neddy why skip the question has the craft got two platforms ?, just because platform 2 the engine or wall travels along with the craft its not connected (fixed) so I think that answers your question.

Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
10. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

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You still are not being clear.

Ask me, right now, what specific question it is you need answered.

11. ### Rocket PaulRegistered Member

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56
Kit I don't know how I can be any clearer but here goes does the system I propose not have two platforms yes or no if the answer is no I want to know why.

12. ### Neddy BateValued Senior Member

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1,710
As long as one magnet is fixed to the wall (totally separate from the office chair), and I am holding the other magnet as I sit in my office chair, then there are two "platforms". But once my office chair is repelled away from the wall, there is only one platform of interest remaining. My office chair and I are one platform, which no longer has any means of propulsion, just a useless magnet which is heavy for me to hold.

If you say that you can then move the wall closer to me, then you are adding a new force to move the wall. If you want to make me move, you might as well add that new force directly to me, rather than to the wall.

13. ### Rocket PaulRegistered Member

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56
Yes correct but you are not on wheels, but in the system I propose there will be a constant repelling force platform 2 free moving magnet and engine force keeps the the magnetic repelling field constant, still no answer looks like I cant move on to question 2.

14. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

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Okay. Assuming the previously discussed system (fixed magnet in the front of the rocket, free-floating magnet attached to the rocket motor at the back), then yes, you would have two "platforms" - however, as far as the application of force from the rocket motor is concerned, it would, I believe, be considered one platform for the purposes of determining specific impulse, load capacity, etc.

15. ### Neddy BateValued Senior Member

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In that case, you should let me hold both magnets as I sit in my office chair, rather than mounting one magnet to the wall. That way you will (hopefully) see that my office chair does not move, no matter which way I move the magnets. That is why everyone is telling you to attach your rocket engine to the rocket itself, and leave the magnets out of it.

16. ### Rocket PaulRegistered Member

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56
Kit okay thank you for that I hope you don't get the crap I had off everyone, now I can move on to question 2, because we have two platforms fixed magnet and craft being platform 1 and free moving platform 2 magnet and engine, platform 2 can now lift platform 1 with its thrust and repelling magnets, thrust from the back and transferred energy to the front okay the craft is being lifted from the back and the front, but now with the repelling magnets pushing on the top of the craft (action) and the second platform free moving engine taking reaction the 2nd platform the craft is being lifted from the point of contact the top but the force is at the bottom engine tail pipe equal and opposite action and reaction to front and back the same as in the pipe test I explained, again this had a big no off Dywyddyr okay we have agreed to two platforms why is this no to some.

Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
17. ### Rocket PaulRegistered Member

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56
Neddy you missed the boat and the question yet again Kit answered for you, and you are failing to see 2 platforms or you would not say what you just said.

18. ### Neddy BateValued Senior Member

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Sorry, but I think you are missing the boat. Kit just told you that what you are describing "would be considered one platform for the purposes of determining specific impulse, load capacity, etc."

There is no way that two magnets that I hold while sitting in my office chair with my feet off the ground are going to get the chair to start rolling. Sure you can attach a rocket engine to one of the magnets, but you'd get the same results if you attached the rocket engine to the chair itself, saving yourself the need for the heavy magnets. That is what everyone is trying to tell you.

19. ### Rocket PaulRegistered Member

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56
Neddy I am trying to explain myself step by step its no good people saying no no no to every single part of what I am saying, I want to know why on each detail now already I am in agreement with someone about two platforms please try and answer question 2.

20. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

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13,902

Okay, let me see if I can break this down:

If I understand you right, you want the engines mounted on the rear "free floating" platform to transfer their thrust, via magnets, to the platform in the front of the craft. Is this accurate?

Do you mean to say that the magnet on the engine platform is pushing the magnet on the craft, and the engine is pushing the engine platform forward to counter the repelling action of the magnets? If so, okay, with you so far.

Okay.

Okay, here is where you seem to be breaking down though - this will not, in fact, make the craft any more stable, and I think I see what you are missing.

What is the "pivot point" of the craft - in your pipe test, the pivot point becomes your elbow, and that is connected to you, which imparts stability on the object.

This space craft would not have that connection, nor stability.

Plus, again, you are using magnets (which are incredibly heavy) to transfer motion from the rear engine platform to the front platform - that is going to eat up most, if not all, of your cargo lifting capacity.

21. ### Neddy BateValued Senior Member

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I thought you were only going to go on to question 2 after we agreed that there are two platforms? So far I don't think anyone agreed to that. Kit said it "would be considered one platform," not two.

Actually I think I was the only one who agreed that there were two platforms, but that was only when you had one magnet attached to the wall, and the other attached to the craft (my chair on wheels). But as Kit reminded you, there are no walls in space, or up in the air.

If you hold both magnets in your hands as you sit in the office chair, you will see that they cannot propel the chair across the room, no matter how you move them.

22. ### Rocket PaulRegistered Member

Messages:
56
Hi Kit

Okay, let me see if I can break this down:

because we have two platforms fixed magnet and craft being platform 1 and free moving platform 2 magnet and engine, platform 2 can now lift platform 1 with its thrust and repelling magnets, thrust from the back and transferred energy to the front
If I understand you right, you want the engines mounted on the rear "free floating" platform to transfer their thrust, via magnets, to the platform in the front of the craft. Is this accurate?

the craft is being lifted from the back and the front, but now with the repelling magnets pushing on the top of the craft (action) and the second platform free moving engine taking reaction
Do you mean to say that the magnet on the engine platform is pushing the magnet on the craft, and the engine is pushing the engine platform forward to counter the repelling action of the magnets? If so, okay, with you so far.

the 2nd platform the craft is being lifted from the point of contact the top but the force is at the bottom engine​
Okay.

Yes again we are talking the same.......

Okay, here is where you seem to be breaking down though - this will not, in fact, make the craft any more stable, and I think I see what you are missing.

What is the "pivot point" of the craft - in your pipe test, the pivot point becomes your elbow, and that is connected to you, which imparts stability on the object.

This space craft would not have that connection, nor stability.

Plus, again, you are using magnets (which are incredibly heavy) to transfer motion from the rear engine platform to the front platform - that is going to eat up most, if not all, of your cargo lifting capacity.

You have to agree that force is applied to the front okay the pipe test is only a rough guide if force is applied to the front you will have a more stable rocket, another rough test that could be done both from the front and the back of the pipe but like you say elbow helping with stability but its the same stability for front and back, hold a thirty foot pipe from the bottom it becomes unstable and not very well balanced now if you can hold the pipe from the top much more balanced but you may need some scaffold to hold from the top, there is no pivot point in the crafts design but there would be a stable connection thanks to the guide rails.

23. ### Neddy BateValued Senior Member

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1,710
Yikes, now there are improperly-quoted quoting issues as well. I can see this is going nowhere fast.