Nothing from Something?

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by John J. Bannan, Jul 10, 2008.

  1. Tht1Gy! Life, The universe, and e... Registered Senior Member

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    He said something about the matter/energy thing. Dunno about the "spiritual energy".
    I like the idea that he did. First time I've heard that bit.
     
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  3. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    Depends on your definition of Universe. If you think of the Universe as everything we can see, then that universe started with the Big Bang. If you think of the universe as more than just that which started with the Big Bang, that is beyond or before the Big Bang so to speak, then I agree with you that the Big Bang didn't start that universe. However, the point is that scientists seem to claim that the Big Bang started with an infinitesimally small point of energy. Now, did that point have no size or some very very tiny size? It would seem to me that even the point that started the Big Bang must have had some size, because it existed. This is similar to the argument that zero must have some size (however tiny) just to be able to claim it exists.
     
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  5. Enmos Staff Member

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    No it may have been very small but it existed. But the laws of physics don't hold until point t=0 so we simply don't know.
    All we now for sure is that something always existed. How you define something or what form it had doesn't matter much until we have the ability to describe it.
     
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  7. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    How do you know for sure that something always existed?
     
  8. Enmos Staff Member

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    Because there is no reason to assume otherwise.
     
  9. Tht1Gy! Life, The universe, and e... Registered Senior Member

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    I'm gonna have to agree with the OP, and say "We don't know that."
    We definitly don't know it for sure.
    It's a reasonable assumtion,...that something always existed... but "know"?
     
  10. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    Well, sure there is. If the Big Bang started it all, and there was nothing before the Big Bang, then there is very good reason to believe something did not always exist. In fact, given the complete lack of evidence of anything existing prior to the Big Bang, the evidence strongly suggests somethingness did not always exist. Of course, I don't agree with any of that, because I think there must have been something that caused the Big Bang. But, still . . . there is good reason not to believe somethingness always existed.
     
  11. Enmos Staff Member

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    Assumption. We simply don't know.

    Ditto.

    If the previous two assumptions are true, I agree you would have a point.

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
    There is equally no evidence that there was nothing before the big bang.

    Huh ? I don't follow. You seem to contradict yourself here..
     
  12. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    OK, then you can't be sure that somethingness always existed - can you?
    I am just playing devil's advocate here. I do tend to favor the existence of somethingness eternally - but only for the reason that nothingness is eternal, and somethingness was probably derived therefrom.
     
  13. Enmos Staff Member

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    There is no logical basis to assume that there wasn't always something.
    But I cannot be completely sure. But I'm as sure of it as I am about Gods existence (and I'm an atheist).
     
  14. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    I was beginning to follow your line of thought but now you've thrown me.

    You say you favour the existence of somethingness eternally. Then you say nothingness is eternal and somethingness was derived from it. This would suggest that nothingness preceded somethingness and leaves us with the problem of explaining how somethingness arose. Did it happen because of some external force which, itself, would also have to have existed eternally or we would get an infinite regress. I can handle an infinite regress of nothingness because there is nothing to change but surely an infinite regress of somethingness would suggest change over time unless it can be established that there was only nothingness before t=0, which I would not rule out as a possibility. Now we have to consider whether a putative force acted simultaneously or repeatedly over time.

    I'm getting out of my depth here but something is telling me that there is a god after all. I confess to having been in denial..
     
  15. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry, I am not saying nothingness preceded somethingness. I am saying that somethingness is like snow falling from nothingness, but a snow fall that has always existed. Imagine an eternal vapor cloud that has been eternally cold enough to eternally snow. So, it's always been snowing, even though the vapor cloud is responsible for the snow. In other words, nothingness has always existed, and always been altering its form to a lesser extent into matter. Clear enough?
     
  16. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    To be honest I don't quite understand. Give me some time to think through what exactly your metaphor is telling us.
     
  17. Enmos Staff Member

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    From the other thread "Something from nothing?":
     
  18. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    I don't think it'sd as simple as that or he would have said so. I feel the metaphor is telling me something but I cannot quite grasp it. I am a slow thinker, so I shall sleep on it.

    Are you not being a bit hasty ? Maybe you should set some quiet time aside and reflect on the metaphor, yourself.
     
  19. Enmos Staff Member

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    I will.. :m:
     
  20. Tht1Gy! Life, The universe, and e... Registered Senior Member

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    This thread has given me much cause for thought.

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    The whole "nothingness begat something" is not new to me (very eastern) I've read it before a few times. I thought I understood it. Somehow, tho I've never applied it to the big bang and all.
    This has blown my mind. Very

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