Newton's 3rd Law of Motion-a question?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Kumar, Sep 13, 2015.

  1. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    Hello,

    I have a simple layman's question about "for every action there is an equal & opposite reaction":-

    Whether this law is also equally applicable to moving towards Balance position of anything?

    I mean, Whether moving towards Balance position of anything also cause equal Imbalance?

    Best Wishes.
     
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    What do you mean by an "equal Imbalance"?

    Can you give us an example of the kind of thing you're talking about, please?
     
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  5. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

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    Newton's Third Law is a statement of the conservation of momentum in the pairwise interaction of bodies.

    In algebra, this can be written either as \(\Delta \vec{p}_1 \; + \; \Delta \vec{p}_2 \; = \; 0\) or \(\Delta \vec{p}_1 \; = \; - \, \Delta \vec{p}_2 \).

    Newton, Sir Isaac (1729). "Axioms or Laws of Motion". The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, Volume I. pp. 20-21.
     
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  7. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Einstein used the third law and center of mass to introduce relativity (E=mc^2) to an audience of Newtonian physicists. Close enough!
     
  8. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    The "force pair" mechanical model, directly applicable to your "balance point" question, is the Standard Model's precursor for boson force carriers, is likewise dependent on an analogy to Newton's third law, as is General Relativity's 'Principle of Equivalence' between inertial and gravitational masses.

    In this forum and elsewhere, Newton's third law has been successfully used in arguments against things like reactionless drives, the Casimir effect (which amounts to the same thing), and perpetual motion machines. Newton's third law is nothing to be trifled with.
     
  9. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    And when it comes to physics, I'm just a simple layman.

    Yes, I believe that it should be.

    Balance isn't exactly what Newton was talking about, even though the phrase 'equal and opposite force' arises in both cases.

    If something is balanced, the forces operating on it from different directions are equal, so that the balanced object doesn't topple from an unbalanced force.

    Newton's third law will apply to all of the forces acting on a balanced object, even if there's an equal and opposite force opposing it. If two children push equally hard on a toy car, one forward and one backwards, so that the toy car doesn't move, both children will feel pressure on their hands equal to the force they are exerting.

    If one of the children stops pushing and removes his hand while the other child keeps pushing, so that the forces the children are exerting on the toy car are no longer balanced, the car will accelerate in the direction the remaining child is pushing. But Newton's law still applies in this unbalanced situation, and that remaining child will still feel a pressure on his hand equal to the force he's exerting. The toy car will continue to push on the child's hand just as hard as the child's hand pushes on the toy car.

    That's how I see it anyway.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
  10. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    1,990
    Sorry, I was involved elsewhere.

    Balance, in other sense we can also say moving towards stability.

    For example. a pendulum, when move towards stable position from moving position, does it attract equal and opposite reaction?
     
  11. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    1,990
    All others,

    Thanks for reply.

    Pls read my last post and guide me accordingly.
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    A pendulum has essentially two forces on it. One is the force of gravity pulling it downwards. The other is the tension force that keeps it attached to its pivot point.

    Both of these forces have equal and opposite forces. Earth pulls down on the pendulum gravitationally. The pendulum in turn pulls upwards on the Earth gravitationally. The tension force pulls upwards on the pendulum. The pendulum pulls downwards on its support at the pivot point.

    The net force on the pendulum as it is swinging is not balanced (zero), however. Since the tension force and the gravitational force act in different directions, there is a net force that tends to accelerate the pendulum towards its straight-up-and-down position, whatever its position might be at some point in time.

    To summarise: what (tries to) restores a pendulum to balance is the net force on the pendulum, which is the combined effect of the forces acting on the pendulum.

    It is important to realise that equal-and-opposite forces in terms of Newton's laws of motion always act on two different objects. This shows that all forces are fundamentally interactions between 2 objects.
     
  13. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks. Does it mean that there is no inherent/own force of an object which can make it either to move or to become stable?
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    That's right. It is only the external force on an object that can cause it to speed up or slow down - that is, the forces exerted by other objects on the object of interest.

    Let me give you one example. Suppose you're sitting near the back of a sailboat holding a large electric fan. You point the fan towards the sail and turn it on. The air blows on the sail. Does the boat move forwards?

    The answer is: no. We can see why in two ways. One way is to consider you, the fan and the boat as one physical system or object. The only forces being exerted in that system by blowing the air around inside it are internal forces - forces exerted by one part of the system on another part. Those forces can't cause the system as a whole to move.

    Another way to look at it is that as the fan blows the air forwards, there is an equal and opposite force on the fan pushing it backwards. When the air hits the sail, it tries to move the boat forwards. However, there's the backwards force on the fan trying to move the boat backwards, too. The net effect is no motion.
     
  15. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

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    The fan acts like a propeller pushing (or pulling) the boat in the opposite direction?
     
  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Yes.

    If you want to move the boat with the fan, you'd do better to point the fan towards the back of the boat. Then it acts like a propellor. The fan pushes air backwards. The equal and opposite force on the fan (exerted by the air) pushes the fan - and therefore the boat - forwards.
     
  17. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks. How an object will behave when there is no applied force on it?
     
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    According to Newton's 1st law of motion, an object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an applied force. An object in motion will continue in motion at constant speed in the same direction unless acted on by an applied force.
     
  19. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks. Does it mean that Newton's 3rd law is not applicable to an object when it is in its natural position i.e. a position without any any outside acting force?
     
  20. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

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    Newton's third law always applies, but if there is no second body then there is, by definition, no action of one body on a second one. No action is equal and opposite to no reaction. Thus Newton's third law applies, but is trivial in content.
     
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    rpenner is right.

    Also, the idea that objects have a "natural state of rest" is an ancient idea due to Aristotle that was thrown out 400 years ago by Galileo.
     
  22. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    rpenner,

    Thanks.

    What is the state of fundamental forces and of elementary particles? I think, one is not effected by other? If so, does it mean Newton's 3rd law is not applicable on these?
     
  23. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    1,990
    Thanks.

    Let us go to basic level. Can fundamental forces and elementary particles also behave in this manner? Like EM force come in contact with GF?
     
    danshawen likes this.

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