News from the Colonies - America's War in Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics' started by goofyfish, Apr 28, 2003.

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  1. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    An odd — and oddly terrifying — story out of Iraq.
    Poor soldiers. Poor children. Poor puppies.

    :m: Peace.
     
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  3. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    And today US troops opened fire on a group of Iraqi demonstrators near Baghdad yesterday, killing at least 13 people and wounding 75 others, according to reports from the area."

    When the Brits were last putting down Iraqi Intifada, they avoided face-to-face spectacles like this by introducing for the first time in history the strafing of civilians from the air. This method of crowd and political control was ultimately unsuccessful, as will be the Americans'.
     
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  5. heflores Banned Banned

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    Hypewaders, I don't understand why you are so upset about? US position is clear. US will give Iraq democracy if Iraq does not select any religious leader or instill any islamic laws and agree to whatever leader and rules the US and Israel will recommend....Untill all those detailed are worked out, all dead are to be considered collateral damage.....It's clear as mud, comeon now...

    hey you conservatives out there, preferabally Jerrek, what the latest detail on enduring freedom operation in Afghanistan....Has the Afghani people started experiencing some enduring freedom yet....?
     
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  7. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    Law And Order Restored To Baghdad

    In order to save a thousand words, here’s one picture.
    Others are on the site of the Oslo daily, Dagbladet.

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    In case you missed the story over the weekend,
    there’s an English version at “Thieves in Naked Shame.”

    :m: Peace.
     
  8. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    If we assume the context of this picture is valid, is it then proper
    military procedure to parade the searchee naked through the streets?

    :m: Peace.
     
  9. heflores Banned Banned

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    There is noway that the picture is valid, I doubt, US would ever be stupid enough to parade naked people around in an Islamic country infront of women and children. They might be getting escorted from the shower area to the dressing room.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    What's the problem?

    This is a violation of the Geneva conventions. The only way those pictures aren't damning is if the US soldiers were snapped in the act of walking up to these fellows and telling them to put their clothes on.
    That is from the aforementioned Mirror article.

    So ... what's the problem? Why is anyone seeking to defend these actions? Especially as we in the US often have a moral difference with the Islamic world over the treatment of criminals, I'm wondering why we're looking to Muslims for punishment solutions. Will we be amputating the hands of the thieves next?
    And well perhaps he should; it won't solve anything, but that doesn't stop Americans, so why should it stop this guy? But these things aren't important to the Americans. Results results results. A violation of the Geneva Conventions? Who cares. "It was quite successful." Welcome to the fine line between bullsh*t and dangerous bullsh*t.

    Prosecute every American involved in the command and service structure that lent to such an operation. Just because we won the war doesn't mean we can abuse the people. And, given that the new Iraqi government will be a puppet, anyway, I think it appropriate that the prosecuted, upon conviction, should serve their sentences in the Iraqis' chosen penal system.

    Thanks, Goofy. I had, in fact, missed the story.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  11. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    What would have been the Iraqi method for dealing with thieves?
     
  12. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    What does it matter. Should pointing the finger at another's wrongdoing ever be used as justification for your own?

    :m: Peace.
     
  13. heflores Banned Banned

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    Re: What's the problem?

    Tiassa,

    Did you forget that we are in their damn country, if they choose to feather and tar their criminals, it's their choice and tradition and what works for them. They don't tell us how to stop three minor strikes and you are out, or using the electric chair, ect....Also, please note that the Islamic law of amputating the arm of the thief is only applied in very few arabic countries like Saudi and few gulf countries. 90% of the arabs have french and english mix of laws that is highly ineffective yet is part of our constitutions. Iraq had a French law....if I remember correctly.
     
  14. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    The White Duck’s Burden

    In Qatar, beginning a triumphal tour through his nonempire, Donald Rumsfeld became vexed:
    And right there is where the trouble lies. Mr. Rumsfeld and his crowd can’t imagine. In Vietnam, people used to say if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

    Only the duck is unaware that it is a duck.

    :m: Peace.
     
  15. Coldrake Registered Senior Member

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    808
    Seems Iraqi citizens gave the soldiers the idea. US troops are now being asked to act as a police force instead of a fighting force; perhaps this was better than being shot on site for attempting to get at US weapons.
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Heflores, Coldrake, and anyone else who might need to read these words

    The point, people, is that just because violating the Geneva Conventions is effective, and just because the people in the town you're in don't give much of a rat's ass for human or civil rights at the moment, you still are not licensed to take part in these crimes against humanity, however minor you might consider them to be.

    What the hell is the problem? Are you people allergic to human decency?

    Get over your petty selves and start treating your fellow human beings better, for heaven's sake.

    Do us all a favor: Don't reproduce. The world does not need more children indoctrinated to your brand of indecency.

    Y'all may like wars and human suffering, but some of us just don't understand what's so cool about it.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  17. Coldrake Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, when they breach your compound to get at your weapons, shoot them. Much more humane that having them walk naked.

    Yeah, I parade naked people through the street daily.:bugeye: And might I suggest it is you that is being petty. You and I may disagree on this, but I'm not the one attempting to chaste you like some miscreant child.

    Too late. I have a 16 year old daughter who, btw, was opposed to the war. I don't 'indoctrinate' her...period. And again...that was a rather petty chastisement.

    Please. Who said they like war? And I can think of a lot worse than being paraded naked for a crime. I respect your posts for the most part, and agree with much of what you have to say, but I think you can find much more to be upset about in Iraq than this.
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Liberty and justice for whom?

    Two words vital to any semblance of freedom: Due Process.
    Do you support this war and occupation? These are the things brought by that which you advocate.
    Stop being childish and I will stop treating you as such. At some point, I have to acknowledge that this is how you want to be treated. Otherwise, I would think you would grow up at some point and start treating these issues seriously.
    Yes, do you treat her with the contempt you treat the rest of the peace movement? Or do you take the hypocritical but merciful route?
    War dogs like wars. Elsewise, they would try harder to avoid them.

    Seems pretty straightforward.

    Look, people who license the mistreatment of others are licensing the mistreatment of others. Period. It's not that hard to figure out, Coldrake. If you make excuses for the devil, don't be upset if people ask why you're making excuses for the devil.
    And as long as I treat each violation of the Geneva Conventions as a separate and insignificant issue ...? The people of the United States could have used a little of that logic during the Drug War. But it seemed much more logical to overstuff our prisons with possessors and users and petty-level dealers.

    It's a bunch of little things our politicians and troops are doing during this period that bring it to this point. And people continue to make excuses for them. It's pathetic.

    What's the line? At what point does it count? As far as I can tell, we now have at least four more people looking to stuff grenades up the asses of American troops. Very effective, indeed.

    A lot of things that seem like a good idea are banned. Some attention was given to RCA's, non-lethal riot-combat (I think) agents. These weapons are banned because in almost every case of chemical warfare, the lethal chemicals were preceded by nonlethal chemicals. It's not that the weapons themselves are a bad idea, but that the statistics speak soundly against them.

    Should the United States withdraw from the Geneva Conventions? We have subscribed to a set of rules that makes this treatment of human beings inappropriate. Should we rescind that subscription?

    Just like the United Nations, the Geneva Conventions just seem too inconvenient for American style.

    Stop advocating a bad situation. I suppose I could simply consider you that mean and downright evil, but I'd rather think it's some quirk of personality that leads you to such pettiness.

    Remember, you're the one advocating the commission of conventionally-recognized crimes. If you choose to dislike my low regard for the philosophical abettors of war criminals, that's your own problem.

    Just ... stop being part of the problem.

    Perhaps people are just incapable of figuring out that I don't care what side who is on. All I care about is that there are people who are advocating a continuance of human strife for no better reason than they are too lazy to do anything better. What's important here? Iraqi oil? Iraqi people? Human rights? Decency? Freedom? Democracy? What? American egotism?

    What is so important that it licenses violations of conventionally-recognized wartime protocol to which the United States has chosen to subscribe?

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  19. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    Just about every complaint you make about the prowar crowd can also be applied to the various members of anti war crowd. You are not so virtuous yourself.
     
  20. Coldrake Registered Senior Member

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    808
    As soon as they get a judicial system up and running I agree. As for now, no.

    I'm not for occupation, but I do realize that to pull out at this point virtually guarantees anarchy and civil war. That is why I was against the war, not for humanitarian reasons like yourself, but because I didn't feel like the administration had planned for the long term. My lack of humanitarianism may offend your senses, but I never said otherwise.

    Say what? How very big of you. How about this? You talk to me any way that makes you feel better about yourself.

    I don't treat the peace movement with contempt. I've never had a problem with protestors, just whiners, particularly whiners who believe they can cure the world by bitching on a net forum. And I have more respect for my daughter's attitude than yours.

    I agree, but since you directed all of this at heflores and I originally, can you kindly link me to a post where I said I like war? And what did you do to avoid the war? According to Allah's Mathematics, you're as much a part of the problem as me, because like me, you're guilty by association.

    So, ask me, Tiassa, although I think I've already explained it.

    I doubt the Americans will hear from those four again.

    You can consider me Satan if it comforts you, but I think you've got some issues.

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    Maybe people just don't care what you care or don't care. Join International Amnesty if you want to make a difference, because you're not going to change the world by harping on this board at everybody that doesn't think just like you.
     
  21. Allahs_Mathematics Mar'Ifah Ahl As-Suffah Registered Senior Member

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    In that sense yes , but ofcourse one can shift because of how one exactly associates .

    According to Allah's Mathematics

    1)What position is a person in ?
    2)How does he use this position ?

    Its not like ur all guilty by being represented (the civillian-government relation) by this administration , you are by defintion of living in USA , but there is plenty shit to do about it .

    First u can make sure none (least possible) money goes into the pockets of the opressors . And u can make sure that as much as possible money goes into the pockets of the opressed (and those fighting oppression) .

    A positive balance (for the oppressed) here gets U out of being guilty by association , as you oppose and fight the problem , and if all would do like you , there wouldnt be a problem .

    Now this all implies action , merely
    1)being a USA profiter
    2)caring for those u profit off

    doesnt get u out of the guilty chair .

    And till now I only spoke of money , think of how many wonderfull ways one can exploit his wonderfull position of being an oppressor for the benefice of the oppressed .

    Think of Schindler , a devil German , but off the hook if u ask me (as far as I can tell and know about him) .
    But do we really need to get into such deep shit before people realize whats the deal , and start acting instead of talking ?

    everybody can do plenty , yet people are boycotting france

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  22. Psycho-Cannon Home grown and Psycho Registered Senior Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    He told Dagbladet:"This was terrible. Now I only want to go home and find a hand grenade and throw it at the soldiers. Not only against those who did it to us but at everybody. I hate the Americans for this."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Looks like he was as good as his word

    Seven U.S. Soldiers Wounded in Iraq Grenade Attack
     
  23. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    Making Iraq Safe For… The Recording Industry?

    Well, at least we've got our priorities straight. The libraries have been sacked, the museums looted, hospitals are almost non-functional, schools are closed...
    ...the water isn't running, there's not enough food, there's civil unrest continues. But! We're going to make sure that people can't pirate the latest CD or VHS movie.

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    Peace.
     
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