National Debt

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Mickmeister, Sep 20, 2006.

  1. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    15,162
    The best way to manage a business is by decreasing costs, while maintaining or improving performance.

    What is the US doing to decrease costs?

    Governments are a waste of money? Why? Because they are too bureaucratic! There is no disintermidiation in governments. So when the information travels through all the layers, it decreases its accuracy. And it's not like the information moves fast anyways!

    Bureaucracy is way too expensive.

    Medical systems are also very poor in north america. They are all still paper-based. The sad thing about the american medical system is that people don't get help and the system is still shitty and bankrupt. The canadian one might be bankrupt, but at least it sorta works!

    And what's up with the fucking pension plans? Governments get your money to pay for the other people who paid before and needs it now. Instead of investing the money, they just pass it along. No wonder that system is also bankrupt!

    Governments are stupid!

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  3. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    FROM THE cia....



    GDP (purchasing power parity): $12.36 trillion (2005 est.)
    GDP (official exchange rate): $12.49 trillion (2005 est.)
    GDP - real growth rate: 3.5% (2005 est.)
    GDP - per capita (PPP): $41,800 (2005 est.)
    GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 1%
    industry: 20.4%
    services: 78.7% (2005 est.)


    Inflation rate (consumer prices): 3.2% (2005 est.)
    Investment (gross fixed): 16.7% of GDP (2005 est.)
    Budget: revenues: $2.119 trillion
    expenditures: $2.466 trillion; including capital expenditures of $NA (2005 est.)
    Public debt: 64.7% of GDP (2005 est.)


    Current account balance: -$829.1 billion (2005 est.)
    Exports: $927.5 billion f.o.b. (2005 est.)


    Reserves of foreign exchange and gold: $86.94 billion (2004 est.)
    Debt - external: $8.837 trillion (30 June 2005 est.)
    Economic aid - donor: ODA, $6.9 billion (1997)
    Currency (code): US dollar (USD)
    Currency code: USD
    Exchange rates: British pounds per US dollar - 0.5500 (2005), 0.5462 (2004), 0.6125 (2003), 0.6672 (2002), 0.6947 (2001); Canadian dollars per US dollar - 1.2118 (2005), 1.3010 (2004), 1.4011 (2003), 1.5693 (2002), 1.5488 (2001); Japanese yen per US dollar - 110.22 (2005), 108.19 (2004), 115.93 (2003), 125.39 (2002), 121.53 (2001); euros per US dollar - 0.8041 (2005), 0.8054 (2004), 0.8866 (2003), 1.0626 (2002), 1.1175 (2001); Chinese yuan per US dollar - 8.1943 (2005), 8.2768 (2004), 8.2770 (2003), 8.2770 (2002), 8.2271 (2001)




    we have a 100 billion a year trade inbalance.

    and our public debt..... equals... 67% of our GDP.


    id say.... the USA, is up to its eyeballs in debt.


    and all of this was 2005... not including the war costs.


    its not a pretty picture...

    and sadly... most countries look exactly the same.

    all in debt to their eyeballs......

    -MT
     
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  5. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you for that info...

    Wow... 67%... that's pretty dangerous.....

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  7. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    THE THING IS....

    THE BANKERS.... are happy if you never pay off the debt...

    they just want you to pay the interest payments....

    for the rest of eterenity.


    until... one day.. they MAY choose to collect... and own the world.

    -MT
     
  8. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    Amazingly, the dollar is considered "safe" and Brazil's money, the Real, R$, a "risk." Slowly the "Reality of the Real" is being recognized. I.e. It only take half as many R$ to buy a dollar now as it did 4 or 5 years ago. In a few years, when the run on dollar starts, relative to the Real, the dollar will have less than 5% its old "stable" ha ha value and gas cost to US drivers in dollars will be > $100/gallon with very few cars on the nearly empty roads

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    (Look on the bright side - no traffic jams

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    -------------------------------
    *Net exporter of petroleum as most of the cars here now run on alcohol (efficiently produced from sugar cane, not cold Iowa's corn).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2006
  9. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed...

    Good thing my family still has lots of Reais.....

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  10. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Those terms refer to the volatility of a currency, as opposed to its actual value (or even its first derivative). The roller coaster the Real has been on over the past five years makes it difficult to predict how its value will change over the next few years. On the other hand, the dollar has been quite predictable, if declining.
     
  11. scorpius a realist Valued Senior Member

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    1,350
    so what,its all just a NUMBER on a computer somewhere and we all know how easy its to manipulate numbers,one days its here and next day its gone or reduced by whatever amount THEY want

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    big G (the goverment)has you all under control with their BS so you just keep on slaving and paying your taxes like all patriots should.
     
  12. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    2,650
    None of those economic disasters... will happen if the Nations of the world, simple comply with my proposed efforts.

    Efforts sent to all the worlds nations.

    Efforts which could begin November 30, 2006.

    -MT
     
  13. terryoh Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    388
    I forget the exact numbers, but I know the Debt-to-GDP ratios are going up and have been projected to go up. Like high 70% or something like that?

    At least that's much better than Japan. I think they're still over 100%.
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    I am surprised Japans is that high, but will take your word for it as I do not know. Two points I want to make:

    (1) There is nothing wrong with high debt to GDP ratios IF the borrowing was done to increase the productive base, instead of consumption, or even worse as GWB has done, for war expenses. Borrowing for "war expenses" is worse than for "consumption" because the builders of bombs etc get paid and yet leave nothing in the society to soak up the extra dollars that circulate because of their salaries. To prevent this from causing inflation, the FED must set interest rates higher and that in turn lessen the investment in production of good and service. Hence "building bombs" etc is worse than useless economically - An activity that not only supplies no consumable for people to purchase and use etc, but actually reduces the goods and services the society can produce for its own benefit. It is, however, a great way to give tax dollars collected from the many to the few, who are already rich enough to be major contributors to your campaign expenses, as GWB has done.

    If you scare the voters enough with "war on terror" etc. they will even think well of you for a while, but as Lincoln (I think) said: "You can fool all of the voters some of the time, Some of the voters all of the time; but not all of the voters all of the time.” GWB will go down in history as the worst president US has ever had, with no one even close to challenge him for this "honor."

    (2) There is nothing wrong with high debt to GDP ratios IF your society is with favorable balance of trade and other factors that make the lenders who are financing the debt not only feel at ease that they can be repaid, but repaid in currency which has not lost too much purchasing power. No one will lend even at 20% interest if they expect the purchasing power to have dropped by 25% by the time the loan is repaid. Unfortunately the US is in this position now, thanks to GWB having converted Clinton's surpluses into the greatest deficits the US has ever run. Most central banks and big buyers of US bonds are ceasing to be willing to lend more (even with the relatively rapid increase in interest rates the FED is now making). Some have even started to quietly get out of dollar denominated bonds they now hold. They understand that the twin deficits will not go away as too big now to be repaid; that US is now borrowing to pay the interest on the old debt; that the new higher interest rates are a drag on US's GDP expansion (about 1/4 of China and India's for example); that fundamental components of US growth, such as all commodities and energy are increasing drags on US's GDP expansion; and most importantly that the dollars they will get when their bonds mature will buy less of almost every thing than the dollars they lent. Even stupid central bankers can eventually understand that they have been screwed by lending to the US and will not only stop, but try to get whatever value they can out of dollars before the run on the dollar starts - probably in only a few years now.

    As I am sure it is coming soon, I hope the run comes in less than two years so GWB will get the blame for it he so richly deserves. He is the worst president the US has ever had. He has taken the US beyond the point of safe return. It will rapidly collapse when the run on dollars starts and drag the entire world into a depression much worse than one beginning in 1929. The people are finally beginning to understand how bad he is, but mistakenly do not yet understand that the Iraq war is only a small factor in the economic disaster he is causing by giving rewards to his rich supporters etc.

    See more at thread "How DUMB can US Voters be?" where the rewards to the rich related to alcohol (instead of oil and defense) industries are discussed.

    I note that at least his efforts to give rich friends in the insurance industry a cut of the tax-dollar pie, via making Social Security private, have now definitely failed. - That will never make it thru the new Democratic-controlled Congress, but unfortunately the US voter awaken too late. - US is already beyond the point of safe return.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2006
  15. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    He might be the worst US president ever, but he could be one of the richest too....!! I'm sure he doesn't mind that...

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  16. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Among factors I mentioned in post 51 that will cause a run on the dollar was the fact that central banks are reducing their holdings of dollars in their reserves. China had not publicly admited this (to my knowledge) but now has. This trend is accelerating, but the rapid collapse pahse is still probably a few years distant.

    "...The U.S. Dollar Index (DX/Y – 85.52) tumbled on news that China's looking
    to diversify its rapidly growing foreign-exchange reserves. The governor of
    the People's Bank of China said at a conference that China has very clear
    plans to diversify its reserves, which now stand at more than $1 trillion.

    A wide range of instruments are under consideration, the governor added.
    The greenback slumped to a two-month low against the euro following the
    news. ..." 11Nov06 from schafer's (a free financial service)
     
  17. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, Japan is around %160. Here the list:

    https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html

    Note that France, Germany, Canada, etc. all have higher debts (as a fraction of GDP) than the US does. It is not considered remarkable for developed countries to run debts that are comparable to their GDP.

    To the extent that the US has a debt problem, it has more to do with the rate of increase of the debt than with its absolute size per se.
     
  18. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

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    8,989
    Yes.

    Say I have $10 and I owe $6.70. That's 67% of my "worth" (I think this is what the US is at).

    Now, say I have $1,000,000 and I owe $670,000. Everyone looks at this like it's a huge crisis because how much I owe is much bigger and the difference is much larger. However, few pay attention to the guy owing $6.70 out of his $10.. even though by ratio, equal. It's the same burden. Both owe 67% and neither are being paid back.

    Of course, more can be done with $670,000 than $6.70. But spread across many areas that one owes, it's not that large. If I owe the 0.67 million across 1,000 sectors, each of them get an average of $670. Again, not that much. That is a weekly paycheck for some.

    Should the debt be paid off? Yes.
    Do I want to help pay it back? No.
    Am I morally responsible to do so? Maybe.

    What should be done is working to reduce the size of the US Government, end pork, and allocate the any surplus appropriately. What can we do? I know nothing about running a government or allocating money within one... but perhaps we could SAVE 10-20% of the surplus. Perhaps a "rainy day" fund. The rest goes to paying off the debt.

    Also, enact the Fair Tax.
     
  19. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Not exactly. Those figures are for debt as a percentage of GDP. GDP is more like income than net worth. So a better analogy would be "Say I make $10 a year, and have a standing debt of $6.70. That's 67% of my annual *income*."
     
  20. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

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    8,989
    Ahh.. that's right. Thank you for clearing that up. But I hope my example still stands

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  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Quadraphonics correction is well taken, but IMHO, there is still more to it than just a comparison of debt to GDP. It is also important to consider the political will of the debtor (person or country). If the debtor shows by his behavior that he is willing to defer some consumption to make progress on the Debt

    For example Brazil had a debt to GDP ratio as bad as the US's but has set very high interest rates to discourage consumption. They are the highest in the world!! Brazil has now got its debt to GDP down to just below 50%. Paid off entirely the IMF loans, etc.

    The contrasting example is the US. - US shows no sign of be willing or able to reduce the debt to GDP ratio.

    Summary: The trend of the debt to GDP ratio is also important as well as the ratio itself.
     
  22. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    It's not appropriate to compare fiscal policies between developed and emerging economies. Debt loads that are no problem for developed countries would be fatal to the progress of developing countries. Likewise with monetary policies.
     
  23. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    AH! That's why we have no money, little education and little health!

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    Because we give all our money to the IMF!!!

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    Now seriously, aren't high interest rates really bad for the economy?
     

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