NASA: Humans Will Prove We Are Not Alone

Got to concur with you on the ^^above quoted^^ SIASLa.

Personally and Professionally the philosophical assumption that Humanity should ask that question, let alone attempt to answer it, is no more than hubris.

As you seem to acknowledge there are quite a few other questions/problems that should be addressed, that are of much more immediate concern.

SIASLa, a possible answer to your IF question : With the current level of Human hubris and conceit there is no reason to believe that Humans would deign to treat ETL any differently than History has shown Humans to treat other seemingly "different" Humans.
Look at how the Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians have been "treated".
Indeed, when all is taken into account, both of those Human Cultures(and many others throughout history!) are more "advanced" in the "intelligent" interaction with Nature on this planet...humanity's currently occupied little corner of the observable Universe.

As I stated in an earlier Post, most Real Scientists and moderately intelligent Laypeople are already certain that Extra-Terrestrial life exists.
Any "Proof" of such will not be 'mankind's greatest moment'...although the sub-set of Humanity that can not or will not accept that "Reality" may well have a hard time with such "Proof", as you opined in your own Post #26 :

 

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StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
After watching the moon landing, I thought we would have several Lunar stations/colonies, 2 or more thriving Mars colonies, mining the asteroid belt & have a much better idea of whether there is other life in this solar system long before now. At some point long ago, I thought by now solar & wind power would be much more developed. Cars & houses are not built much better than they were 40 or more years ago. People still have to destroy their health to make a living in modernized as well as more primitive nations. We cannot prevent natural disasters & seem unable to adequately prepare for them.
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Oh so was I...most certainly, so was I! But as I have mentioned a few times now in different threads, economics and politics, are two horrible variables that have held us back. If it weren't for either one or both, we would already be on Mars.

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StrangerInAStrangeLa said
I hope you are correct about some things but I cannot assume such. Specially on religion. Tho we are definitely making slowbutsure progress, I would not be surprised at how long humans will be cursed with religion. IF we ever meet peaceful aliens, I hope religion is gone before then.
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Totally agree.
But also as I have mentioned, even in that area, we are progressing, despite areas of creationists digging in their heels. For example, the Catholic church in giving the OK to the BB and Evolution, not only have they added more certainty to those theories [albeit for their wrong reasons] but they have also labelled their own bible as a book of fairy tails and myths.

I see much greater questions, such as why can't we all get along & will there ever be peace on Earth & will humans destroy themselves or carelessly let themselves be destroyed & will humans ever spread out to other solar systems so that they cannot all be destroyed in only 1 place & IF humans find intelligent yet not as advanced life on other planets, what will humans do to them.

The ISS is an example of human cooperation, although limited it is a start and an example of what can be done.
As a race, we are improving. We don't live in the dark ages anymore, we are trying to preserve species and flora, and the greatest invention of our venture into space, the Satellite, has been unquestionably beneficial to Agriculture, weather and climate predictions, food production etc.

The greatest question humanity has to ask, is "Are we alone" We have overwhelming evidence supporting the likelyhood that ETI does exist, but mankind still needs that irrefutable proof. That's what great orginisations such as NASA, ESA etc are working towards.
Our Earthly problems will continue to be looked at and hopefully solved, but it is the height of Idiocy when we hear the argument put forward by some to direct the tiny amount science/cosmology is spending [which is helping these problems anyway] directly to the homeless, hunger, war and famine which still do exist.

I have a better solution for those Idiots.
Direct all the trillions and trillions of dollars that are spent every year on militaristic endeavours around the world, to the problems of hunger, famine and homelessness.
A ventures into the Universe are helping in many ways, as well as advancing our species.
If we are able to positively answer the greatest question, "Are we alone" in a positive way, it will focus our attentions onto the more important cosmological questions and at the same time, help us realise the folly of Earth based petty arguments, landgrabs, aggressive takeovers etc etc etc.
We will alleviate our Earthly problems in time, but not at the sacrifice of going into the Universe, and seeking those important answers.

Likewise if we make contact with a species less Intelligent than us, by that stage of our advancement, I do not see us wanting to take over or do what Chris did to the America's, or what White settlement did a couple of hundred years ago to the Australian Indigenous people.
We have moved on since those ghastly times and I believe we are progressing and learning.
I don't see us ever taking over another race of ETI.
I also don't see any ETI taking over Earth.
Any advanced civilisation would not really want for much......Quantities such as water are found everywhere for instance.

I see far more benefit in optimism then wringing one's hands in despair, and giving up.
If the future is not approached in that way, we all may as well jump off a cliff like Lemmings!
More can be done certainly, and each in his way can help.
One of my favourite charities is the following......
http://www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org/

 

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dmoe said:
As I stated in an earlier Post, most Real Scientists and moderately intelligent Laypeople are already certain that Extra-Terrestrial life exists.
Any "Proof" of such will not be 'mankind's greatest moment'...although the sub-set of Humanity that can not or will not accept that "Reality" may well have a hard time with such "Proof", as you opined in your own Post #26 :
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Quote Originally Posted by StrangerInAStrangeLa
IF we find good evidence of life out there somewhere, theists will claim that as evidence of gods. IF somehow we could find there is no other life in the universe, theists would claim that as evidence of gods.
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You are having that same problem again dmoe, with misinterpreting.
What stranger is saying, is that Creationists, either way when that greatest question is answered, will see the answer as evidence for their God.
Like having $2 either way on the outcome.

I actually agree with stranger's thoughts, and have already said so.
This should though open your eyes and make you aware of your errors in including Creationists/Religion, as any sort of scientific answer, which you have often inferred and confused in other threads.

 

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Humans will and have for at least 150yrs. ( actually , much , much longer , but thats an investigation of history )

Of those who refuse to investigate , the we are not alone , thing , would never know this nor understand what I'm saying

 

As I clearly stated in my Post #81 I firmly believe that the Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians(and many other Cultures throughout history!) were, and still are, more "advanced" in the "intelligent" interaction with Nature on this planet...not less!

When you say 'Chris', if you are possibly referring to Christopher Columbus, then you should know that he never actually set foot on the North American Continent - so never interacted in any way with the Native Americans that I was referring to, although the Island Cultures/Peoples fared no better.

paddoboy, just as most knowledgeable people the world over know that that the Native American is still egregiously mistreated, they also know that it is the same for Australia's Aboriginal people.
Both of those Peoples/Cultures, as well as many others still suffer horrendously!
So...no, paddoboy, 'we have' not in all actuality 'moved on since those ghastly times'.

You may know of the documentary "Utopia" by John Pilger - if not you can learn about it at this Link : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3335378/

One of the Reviews of the documentary "Utopia" is authored by an Australian lady :

- the ^^above quoted^^ from : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3335378/reviews?ref_=tt_urv

paddoboy, this is the just the "Tip of the Iceberg", so to speak, of the myriad of questions/problems that SIASLa and myself are referring to that we should take care of in humanity's currently occupied little corner of the observable Universe...before showing our A$$ to any and all ETL or ETI.

 

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dmoe said:
As I clearly stated in my Post #81 I firmly believe that the Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians(and many other Cultures throughout history!) were, and still are, more "advanced" in the "intelligent" interaction with Nature on this planet...not less!
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The usual misinterpreted rubbish:
As anyone can see, I was speaking of humanity [that is humanity as a species] coming into contact with some ETI Alien species, that was obviously less Intelligent than us.


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dmoe said:
When you say 'Chris', if you are possibly referring to Christopher Columbus, then you should know that he never actually set foot on the North American Continent - so never interacted in any way with the Native Americans that I was referring to, although the Island Cultures/Peoples fared no better.
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I'm referring to the discoverer of the "New World"at that time, and what followed.
More of your purposely distracting misinterpreted nonsense.
But we have all come to expect that from dmoe now, havn't we?


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dmoe said:
paddoboy, just as most knowledgeable people the world over know that that the Native American is still egregiously mistreated, they also know that it is the same for Australia's Aboriginal people.
Both of those Peoples/Cultures, as well as many others still suffer horrendously!
So...no, paddoboy, 'we have' not in all actuality 'moved on since those ghastly times'.
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Pure unadulterated rubbish. Of course we have moved on and progressed! Not perfect as yet, but we have moved on. To deny that is to imitate the three wise Chimps.

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dmoe said:
paddoboy, this is the just the "Tip of the Iceberg", so to speak, of the myriad of questions/problems that SIASLa and myself are referring to that we should take care of in humanity's currently occupied little corner of the observable Universe...before showing our A$$ to any and all ETL or ETI.
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More rubbish.
Showing our collective arse to some ETI species, would be a highlight of human history, just behind the highlight of having the greatest question of all time answered, in confirming their existence.

I see you fail to comment on my proposal of ending all militaristic endeavours, world wide and saving trillions and trillions and trillions of bucks, that can be put to alleviating all our Earthly woes and problems. Something of which I do care about, and something of which I am doing something about, in my own little way, but certainly not by stalling, stopping or curtailing in any way our quest to explore the solar system, galaxy and beyond.

Finally I certainly see my optimistic approach as doing far more than your own sanctimonious indignation at the same problems.

 

StrangerInAStrangeLand:From my Post #71

From your Post &73

Referring to my Post #71 remarks.

I have very cogent reasons for my POV, the most obviously correct being the following

Vertebrates supply oxygen to their muscles, organs, & brains via the activities of the lungs, heart, & circulatory system.

Insects supply oxygen via air passages open to the atmosphere. The requirements for oxygen are related to mass, a third order function. The insect oxygen supply system is related to the surface area of the air passages, a quadratic (Id est: a second order function). For those who do not grok the implications, consider cubes of various sizes.

1 unit cube: Surface area 06 & volume 01. Ratio 6 to 1
2 unit cube: Surface area 24 & volume 08. Ratio 3 to 1
3 unit cube: Surface area 54 & volume 27. Ratio 2 to 1​

As an insect is scaled up, its ability to supply oxygen becomes inadequate.

Maintaining balance, walking, & running on two legs require an extensive set of motor & sensory nerves in the feet. A somewhat sophisticated brain is also required to process input from sensory nerves & send appropriate data to the motor nerves which control balance, walking, & running. The requirements are significant for a smooth surface like a paved sidewalk. They are greater for navigating an uneven surface.

Insects do not have the necessary nervous system & brain to cope with only two legs.

BTW: I do not think there are any insects with only 4 limbs.

Evolution has a strong tendency to be efficient.

For running, a quadruped far more efficient than a biped.

Four legs allows for running techniques far more effective than those available with two legs.

Two more legs would result in little, if any, extra speed. The 5th & 6th legs would require extra body resources for oxygen/nutrient supply & repair/maintenance functions with little, if any, increase in running speed. To allow 6 legs to function independently, a more complex set of sensory/motor nerves & extra brain functions would be required. The extra costs in body resources is not justified by a comparable increase in effectiveness.

BTW: I am reminded of an interesting SciFi novel or short story in which genetic engineering has become very advanced. In the story, a wealthy woman asks for the creation of a Pegasus-like creature.

The genetic expert asks if she desires a creature which looks like Pegasus or a horse-like creature which can fly. He is unable to convince her that a flying horse would require huge pectoral muscles & would not look like the mythical creature.

There are some rules to the evolution & design of living creatures. Some SciFi stories require that the reader ignore certain realities.

Do any of you folks remember the 6-million dollar man with super strong legs & one super strong arm? Consider the following scenes from that delightful TV series which I enjoyed.

He grips the bar of a jail cell & jerks it loose. In a real world, he would actually jerk his face toward the iron bar & possibly break his nose.

He uses his super strong arm to lift a car up allowing a friend to change the tire (There was no jack available). In a real world, his super strong arm & super strong legs could do the job, if his ordinary back did not break.​

I enjoyed that TV series, but had to use 1984 Double Think in order to ignore some obvious problems with such scenes.

 

Your POV seems to be that we can know what planets & life on them are like in trillions of other solar systems from studying animals & evolution on 1 planet. That is myopic, simplistic, extremely assuming & just plain wrong. Evolution elsewhere could follow very different rules. Most or all other life could be very similar to life here or extremely different or anything between. There might be life out there which we could never recognize as life. There may be scientists on other planets who "know" that life under Earth conditions is impossible. Hopefully, our knowledge based on Earth conditions will be helpful & we cannot help but have that as a starting point but we will be severely limited by expecting all life in the universe to operate by Earth rules. IF someday we do have knowledge of what life is like thruout this galaxy, that will not tell us what life is like in the rest of the universe. It does no good to pretend to know things we do not know.

 

To add to the silly claim that money on space endeavours needs to be curtailed, or the search for ETL is "much ado about nothing", to spend on Earthly problems, I also found an Interesting article......
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from:
http://www.universetoday.com/31470/8-ridiculous-things-bigger-than-nasas-budget/

8 Ridiculous Things Bigger Than NASA’s Budget:

Why do we explore? In the days of Magellan, Columbus and da Gama, undoubtedly the average person thought it was foolish to risk lives and spend large amounts of money to find out what was beyond the horizon. Those explorers didn’t find what they expected, but their explorations changed the world. What drives us to explore and discover is what we don’t know, and the spirit of exploration inspires us to create and invent so that we can go explore and possibly change the world. We don’t know yet exactly what we’ll find if humans ever go to Mars, Europa or beyond, but if we stay in our caves we’ll never find out. Similarly, space probes and telescopes like Hubble, as well as ground-based telescopes have helped us explore remotely and have facilitated the discovery of so many things we didn’t know — and didn’t expect — about our universe.
However, exploration takes money.


The most often-used argument against space exploration is that we should use that money to alleviate problems here on Earth. But that argument fails to realize that NASA doesn’t just pack millions of dollar bills into a rocket and blast them into space. The money NASA uses creates jobs, providing an opportunity for some of the world’s brightest minds to use their talents to, yes, actually benefit humanity. NASA’s exploration spurs inventions that we use everyday, many which save lives and improve the quality of life. Plus, we’re expanding our horizons and feeding our curiosity, while learning so, so much and attempting to answer really big questions about ourselves and the cosmos.

NASA’s annual budget for fiscal year 2009 is $17.2 billion. The proposed budget for FY 2010 would raise it to about $18.7 billion. That sounds like a lot of money, and it is, but let’s put it in perspective. The US annual budget is almost $3 trillion and NASA’s cut of the US budget is less than 1%, which isn’t big enough to create even a single line on this pie chart.

A few other things to put NASA’s budget in perspective:

Former NASA administrator Mike Griffin mentioned recently that US consumers spend more on pizza ($27 billion) than NASA’s budget. (Head nod to Ian O’Neill)

Miles O’Brien recently brought it to our attention that the amount of money Bernie Maddof scammed with his Ponzi scheme ($50 billion) is way bigger than NASA’s budget.

Americans spend a lot of money on some pretty ridiculous things. Returning to that oft-used phrase about spending the money used in space to solve the problems on Earth, consider this: *


Annually, Americans spend about $88.8 billion on tobacco products and another $97 billion on alcohol. $313 billion is spent each year in America for treatment of tobacco and alcohol related medical problems.


Likewise, people in the US spend about $64 billion on illegal drugs, and $114.2 billion for health-related care of drug use.

Americans also spend $586.5 billion a year on gambling.

It’s possible we could give up some other things to help alleviate the problems in our country without having to give up the spirit of exploration.


*the numbers used here are from various years, depending on what was readily available, but range from the years 2000 and 2008.

Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/31470/8-ridiculous-things-bigger-than-nasas-budget/#ixzz38vrRuWsy
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Please note:
Permission has been obtained for reproducing articles in their entirety from "Universe Today"

 

StrangerInAStrangeLand:From your Post #88

The above was in response to the following from my Post #71

From your Post #73

In my Post #87 I provided some very cogent reasons for my POV, especially relating to large insects.

Can you provide any cogent reasons supporting your implied POV that insects could be scaled up to the size of Texas Steers?

BTW: Note that I did not claim omniscient knowledge, only a lot of knowledge.

 

paddoboy, I, dmoe, never made any 'claim that money on space endeavours needs to be curtailed', nor that 'the search for ETL is "much ado about nothing" '.
I would ask you to provide "supporting evidence" of your statement, but...

...in my Post #20, I clearly stated :

... in my Post #62 - ...Much Ado About Nothing..., I, dmoe, enumerated 7 reasons and :

None, and I repeat, none of those 7 enumerated reasons had anything to do with any :

 

dmoe: Obviously due to the apparent lack of moderation at this particular time, you see the need to continue your rather passive aggressive pedantic posts.
I'm not. ok? Bye.


It's worth considering that the many reasons for space endeavours, most entail to some degree, the search for water, signs of life and general conditions to support possible life both in the past and present.
The many Mars probe and rover landings had multiple missions. Viking 1 and 2, Opportunity and Spirit, Phoenix and the latest MSL Curiosity.


The search for life will continue, as it should, even though we may know that it most likely exists somewhere, sometime.
As scientists, NASA other space agencies, and the whole human race [well nearly all

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] need to know, and have definitive evidence or proof of its existence.
That is a goal of NASA and all other agencies.
Any argument that raises the need to direct money from such endeavours to our Earthly problems, is only a furphy and reveals most likely some hidden agenda.

 

more relevant Info.

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Eavedropping on ET: Two New Programs Launching to Listen for Aliens:
June 30, 2014 12:00pm ET


SETI is stepping up its search for alien lifeforms on far off worlds.

The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) program recently announced two new methods to search for signals that could come from life on other planets. In the Panchromatic SETI project, multiple telescopes will scan a variety of wavelengths from 30 stars near the sun; the project will look for powerful signals beamed into space, potentially by intelligent extraterrestrials. SETI is also launching an interplanetary eavesdropping program that is expected to search for messages beamed between planets in a single system.

"If we are polluting space, perhaps other extraterrestrials are leaking signals," Dan Werthimer, director of the Berkley SETI Research Center, told an audience during the Smithsonian Magazine's "The Future is Here" Festival in May. "Maybe they're sending something our way."
more......
http://www.space.com/26392-seti-programs-alien-search-for-life.html
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“One of the most appealing characteristics of astrobiology is that the discipline forces us to ask questions that put in perspective our place in the universe: What are life, consciousness, and intelligence in a universal context, and what are the metaphysical assumptions that underlie our understanding of these concepts? Is there a general theory of living systems, a universal biology as there is a universal physics? What are culture and civilization? What is our place in the 13.8 billion year unfolding of cosmic evolution? Some of these questions bearing on consciousness and intelligence are beyond the scope of the current NASA astrobiology program, but they are nevertheless an important part of the search for life in the universe.” — Steven J. Dick
Sources: The Washington Post, io9, DCCC

 

That's a good point. It would be odd having all those planets and nothing alive on them. Really (obviously), depends on how close they are to their star. Even if a planet has bacteria on it, but is not in the "habitable zone", it would not be much of a big deal...so, i think when we say "life" it should be clear (add qualifier), and to me this means sentient life...'course, bacteria (the end all and be all) are the building blocks of life, BUT then can survive where other life cannot. Then again, different strains of bacteria would be amazing. The building blocks of life, after all.

Part of me thinks that it is already...POSSIBLY, known and then again stranger things have happened AND even in 20 years we would only know a minuscule part of the universe anyway.

As an aside, there is a new pic of the Horsehead Nebula.

 

Show me 33,000 planets with animal life yet no 2 legged insects. We are essentially saying the same things over&over. You claim to know what you cannot possibly know & I point out that you do not know it. YOU are the 1 making a claim.

 

stranger: You do not seem to know enough about biology to understand my Post #87

In that Post I explained why there are no SciFi insects as large as a Texas steer.

The explanation requires that you understand a fundamental difference between vertebrate & insect mechanisms for supplying oxygen to muscle tissues.

Repeating my explanation would be a waste of my time & yours.

Why not check with a college biology professor & show him my explanation?

BTW: Have you never wondered why land dwelling vertebrates range in size from mice & shrews to elephants, while all insects are smaller than mice?

 

No. The problem is that you do not understand that you do not know enough about alien biology.

 

For some proof isn't necessary. When the mainstream finally gets the proof it's looking for it will be very old news for those few. It already is extremely old news.

But hey, individuals need to discover some things at their own pace in their own way. When society is ready then eventually they'll have their proof. For the rest of us, well we'll just wait until society catches up. It's not really that big of a deal.

 

Proof will always be desirable if we can obtain it.
Then those like myself, can gleefully shout out "I TOLD YOU SO!!!"

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If that proof can be actual contact, [close encounters of the third kind] it would be even more momentous.
It would without doubt go down as the greatest day in human history.....perhaps even surpassing landing on the Moon, or an eventual manned Mars expedition, if that comes before contact.
Even if that proof or evidence just pertained to primordial basic life. As one who does not need convincing, I would be over the Moon and happy for our folk at SETI and other orginizations doing the hard yakka.