The difference is that your position is potentially athiestic. If the idea (complex, father-archetype) is only inside and gets projected on external reality than religious people, in general, are mistaken. Athiests tend to belief that people exist and psyches exist but do not believe in gods (or resurections of dead to living bodies as another example). Nor in Heaven, hell and so on. You may not be saying this, but I think many Jungians are saying this and I think the word 'archetype' has this baggage and becomes propaganda in this context.
I disagree. They are not quite so obvious to me. Do you think animals fear death? My guess is that they lack the ability for complex abstract thought and belief systems to even grasp the concept of death, let alone fear it. I think they seek comfort and avoid pain, and nothing more complex than that. I also think fear is a human invention.
Human's fear of death and the unknown is at the root of religion and the formation of the archetypes. Beging very vague and general, of course... Someone who is holy (is more pure than you and knows more than you) often born of a virgin (again lending to purity and divine origin) and knows the secret to being happy in life, and what happens after death becomes a martyr and is resurrected to avoid death.
Star Wars have archetypes too... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It's like modern day mythology.... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
George Lucas made Star Wars after consulting Joseph Campbell, so there's no surprise. Star Wars was modeled on the age old hero myth with the help of one of the top comparative religion scholars. Skywalker - redeeming hero (walking in the sky) Darth Vader - dark father Yoda - classical helper princess Lea - first lover, then becomes one of the family - same blood Force - can I say chi? etc, etc.
Yes... Star Wars was very inspired by eastern philosophies. Just take a look at Yoda, for instance. And what they say about the force. Even their clothes resemble kimonos! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
If all these are archetypes, how are they passed? One either has to take the position that the information is passed genetically? Or that the mind has access to some form of shared consciousness, or pool of information? If the answer is neither of these, then the archetypal information is just picked up from stories and myths when young. If this is the case then it seems to me that they are not really archetypes (as I understand the term) but just real experiences that have been mythologized and are verbally passed from generation to generation. Unless I am missing something? EDIT :- I am missing something, there is another possible way in which archetypes could be passed; if reincarnation occurs then that is how archetypal information is transmitted through generations and comes out of our subconscious memories.
Here's another one.............. are we all no more than walking archrtypes ouselves? Just look through this forum, is not everyone just an archetype? Do we just pick an archetype for ourselves from within our psyche and then play the role through life..??
Do you have any basis for such a guess? During mating contests, animals aren't afraid of pain. When a carnivore grabs its leggy prey by the buttocks, it gets kicked and often has broken bones; yet the carnivore continues hunting, because it needs food in order to remain alive. I recall an episode of Planet Earth from two weeks ago where a wild dog was chasing an antelope (or what was it?) and the prey jumped into a pool of water even though it wasn't a great swimmer and couldn't stay in the water for too long (thus, gave in to prolonged discomfort in order to avoid death). Humans fear pain because this fear is necessary for our survival. It's not an invention but an instinct that we're born with. Why do you think animals don't fear death?
Great input! I hadn't thought of archetypes as instincts before. Thanks! I have some food for thought now. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Not missing, please see here: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=67889 I created a new thread to avoid off topic posting.
Sorry. I just notice the thread... LOL! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I think avoidance of pain is not necessarily the same thing as fear of pain. It may seem a pedantic point to make, but I think it's an important distinction to recognize. I know that if I place my hand on the hot frying pan, it will hurt a great deal. By not placing my hand on the frying pan, does that necessarily imply that I fear the frying pan, heat or pain? I don’t think it does. If I were afraid of frying pans, I would never touch one again. If I were afraid of hot frying pans, I would never cook again. If I were afraid of pain, I would also never cook again (or do anything that might result in hurting me). When I cook, I do so taking care to avoid touching the hot surfaces, because pain is unpleasant. What suggests to you that it is any more than simple avoidance of that which causes the discomfort of pain? This is not to say that there is no such thing as survival instinct. Instinct, by definition, is not rationalized, however. Look at your antelope. He went into the water because he was trying to avoid the pain of being attacked by a vicious dog and he was trying to avoid death. Avoiding death is simple survival instinct – it does not imply a fear of death. As I said, I think they lack the ability for complex abstract thought and belief systems to even grasp the concept of death, let alone fear it. Fear of death requires the ability to consider and conjure complex abstract ideas. You must be able to grasp the concept of death and consider the outcome of your death to harbor a fear of it. Animals, by all appearances, do not have this ability. As much as it may upset some atheists to consider, one of the most significant aspects that separate humans from the rest of the animals is religion. Religion, Worship, Philosophy, Ethics – these are all complex, abstract notions that animals show no ability to grasp. Yes, I know that some animals appear to have complex social rules and practices – that is a far cry, however, from the practice of exploration of ethics and justification of actions. Fear, is an abstraction.
Furthermore, I don't think fear is an advantage in any situation. The state or condition we generally refer to as "fear" is really a state of heightened sensual awareness. Your heart pumps faster racing blood to your extremeties. Your hair stands on end, making your skin more sensitive to touch. Smells and sounds are more distinct. Your vision is sharper and more vivid. Your mind is moving faster. Your reflexes are keener. Adrenaline production ramps up. When we sense danger, our bodies go into this heightened state of awareness, so we can better cope with the situation at hand - whether we choose fight or flight, we will perform better. People have condition responses to this reaction. They understand, on some visceral, instinctive level, that this is a reaction to danger and the state of heightened awareness sets them into panic mode. The fear comes from lack of self-confidence, past failures, insecurities, wariness of the unknown and other weaknesses that have been ingrained in the psyche over the years. A heightened state of awareness is a normal, healthy thing. Fear is a man-made weakness. Fear lead to panic, which leads to poor decision making, which leads to negative results (in the wild, it often leads to death).
Fear also leads to pre-occupation, which leads to obsession, which leads to neuroses. I can go on and on about the disadvantages of fear - I have lately (it seems it just keep coming up here lately).
Fear is an emotion that clouds reason. Hence why we have catholicism...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
