Morning, All.

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by Doc Braun, Apr 4, 2011.

  1. Doc Braun Registered Member

    Yes. Actually, I thought I'd use something a bit more airtight than a bucket, and place it above the actor, but out of sight of course, and have the feed tube running down to the beaker. I'd disguise it by running it though his shirt sleeve. The CO2 fog will flow downwards and emerge in the beaker with some swirling movement, which will enhance the effect of chemical activity.

    If I had a retort, I'd use that. But I only have a collection of lab glass that I've accumulated by donation.
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  3. John99 Banned Banned

    Why does the fuel cause a noticeable reaction? Would people be convinced he had fuel for a time machine from dry ice? Couldnt it hjust be some green food coloring in a beaker because who is to say the green fluid is not the fuel?
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  5. Doc Braun Registered Member

    Right. And that's exactly why I don't want the dry ice trick to look like the dry ice trick. I want a fluid that changes colour or glows or does something spectacular but safe, and the dry ice fog is just an extra element for added effect.

    I've considered using the fluids from glow sticks, and pouring them together to create a green light. I wonder what woudl happen if I put dry ice into the beaker first....?

    I want to suggest that he has discovered a way of utilising nuclear energy through common chemical means. So the fluid should do something extraordinary.
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  7. John99 Banned Banned

  8. Doc Braun Registered Member

    Maybe something a bit more spectacular than that, John.

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    I must go now and pick up some dry ice to test out all these techniques.

    Thanks, All.
  9. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Here's one that might work.

    Mixing Potassium Permangante (in an acidic solution) with Sodium Borohydride (there may be some issues here - for example, Sodium borohydride reacts vigourosly with water) in the presence of Rodamine B for a red glow (or any of the following):
    Blue 9,10-Diphenylanthracene
    Green 9,10-Bis(phenylethynyl)anthracene
    Yellow-green Tetracene
    Yellow 1-Chloro-9,10-bis(phenylethynyl)anthracene
    Orange 5,12-Bis(phenylethynyl)naphthacene, Rubrene, Rhodamine 6G

    Alternatively a 30% solution of Hydrogen peroxide mixed with a 5% solution of hypochlorite mixed with any of the above dyes will give you a glow of your choice (results may vary).
  10. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

  11. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Don't forget "Back To the Future II" moved from the use of Nuclear fuels to using "Household waste" to power the time machine.

    (The following might seem "word soup", but I'm really trying to pose that a powersource doesn't even have to be contained within the same universe or timeframe.)

    You know the alternative isn't necessarily something like flashy lights, smoke and other special effects but requires a better "pseudoscience" or Fringe science to base the method on. I guess it's really dependent on how far you want to go with attempting to boggle the mind or en-capture the attention of those "cult" followers of scifi out there.

    I mean I'm sure you know there are many problems with the notion of time travel, for instance "The Grandfather Paradox" involving the "theoretical" assassination of a Grandfather prior to your father's birth conception.

    The theory was to generate certain spin for instance, if you manage to kill your grandfather you wouldn't exist therefore you wouldn't exist to kill him meaning you would exist, which in turn would mean..... etc.

    Simply put it identifies a Cyclic system of two repeated and infinite loops. (It's funny how the infinity sign looks an awful lot like two repeated but constantly "flipping" loops)

    This is of course where Multiworld's Theory comes into play, where every potential outcome is possible and doesn't interfere with the initial universe that catalysed any such paradox. (Each universe is Separate)

    This is where a decent bit of pseudoscience can come in very handy based upon the notions of "Non-Locality" and "Parallel Universes". Here's the hypothetical place that I would make a "Power system". Energy as I'm sure you are aware Can not be destroyed, it can only change form, hypothetically you could have a parallel universe that houses the power system for a time machine that utilises "Non-Locality pairing".

    Non-Locality Pairing is a theory I've been throwing about to try and deal with the problems of distant communication and even such occurrence's as powering a device. It requires the capacity to utilise a Quibit computer to create a single observational world into a multiworld state. Once in a multiworld state, a "Switch" is made between two paired components.

    Forever charged electric toothbrush
    For simplicity of explanation the components in question are two distinctly different electric toothbrushes. You see the electric toothbrush has a unique way of using Electromagnetic Induction to "charge" the internal battery which is seal within the watertight casing. It the best thing to use as an example.

    Basically you have two toothbrushes and one charger. A1-A2 and B1. In our current standard universe only one toothbrush can be recharged in the charger at one time, however this is where we use two parallel universes and Non-locality pairing to create a new method of powering the toothbrush.

    You see in one universe you plug A1 into B1, in another universe you plug A2 into B1. In both universes you have B1 being powered, what is interesting however is that both A1 and A2 are now paired through non-locality with each other, as long as the other of the pair is being charged through the charger, Which incidentally is required to be one charger because it attempts to make both brushes occupy the same spacial volume even though in two universes. (Namely the brushes are relative to the charger) While one brush is charging, the other not plugged into the charger will have power through induction across the universal axis.

    Lagless: communication at long distances
    The same method can actually be posed to work if using an Antenna instead of a toothbrush and a mixture of mobile controlled car with camera mount and controller with screen of camera view. If paired correctly the radio telecommunication between the car and the controller doesn't get impaired by distance as it's the actual antenna's that conduct the communications across it. (You could actually shield the antenna's, since the communications would occur through properties of the antenna material and multiworlds)

    In this particular instance it means you could drive the car for as long as the batteries hold up (which obviously I've identified you could possible power over infinite distance too) This was a theoretical method to deal with the problems of robotic drones operating at large distances like for instance mapping a different planets surface to remove the radiological delay that would otherwise occur.

    (Incidentally my theories on this subject was actually originally intended to remove lag on multiplayer servers)
    Can such a power or communication system work on the otherside of a Grandfather Paradox or "Bridge"?

    Why have I mentioned all this, well I going to put forwards a rather bizarre theoretical experiment and funnily enough it does involve time travel.

    Firstly it requires building a Robotic Drone that is "paired" similar to above with a mainframe. It would contain rudimentary Artificial Intelligence however it's operation is more about being an Avatar controlled by a ground crew. If this Drone was to be placed into a Carriage that was sent back before the time of it's creation or the invention of any of it's components, would the Drone be capable of being operated from that different time frame/universe? Considering that is an unwritten future sending back a drone to operate in a "assumed" causality driven past.

    Better still what paradoxical events would occur on the discovery of the drone? Would it ever become public knowledge or the people involved ever told that they might well have lost their universal placement and therefore knowledge of involvement because of such an experiment and the paradoxes it caused? (I'm not at all pointing at anything that occurred in Roswell 1947)

    Self-Repairing material
    Another hypothetical. Lets say you take 50 sheets of Aluminium foil and you have a guillotine for cutting the material into a set size. The guillotine acts as a universal spacial reference that is un-tampered. But what you do is you create a parallel universe for each sheet, at which the sheet numbered 1 is swapped with one of the other sheets, so the swap occurs once with a different sheet for each universe.

    A simplified placement Matrix. 
    1 2 3 4 5 6 
    2 1 3 4 5 6
    3 2 1 4 5 6
    4 2 3 1 5 6
    5 2 3 4 1 6
    6 2 3 4 5 1
    ( Horizontal: Material number, Vertical: Universe number)
    If Sheet 1 is used for testing, it should inherit the properties of the other five materials through being a multiworld's composite.
    Each sheet is then placed into the guillotine and cut into a set size and a robotic arm that operates exactly the same on each universe, through a timed method moves the sheet to a location. The hypothesis is the sheet you have would have the properties of all the superimposed sheets, if you were to put a hole in the sheet that itself was a paradox, the sheet would attempt to bend and fix itself in alignment to the rest of the superimposed sheets.

    It could be queried as to what the overall sheets mass would be like and if of course it would be possible to do (some might query as to whether attempting to overlay paradoxes like this would generate a Hutchison Effect or just an increase in density to the material.)

    Edit: Cleaned it up a little, Like I pointed out this is the Fringe/Pseudo"babble" that can be used to Gel fiction together, as well as introduce you to a rather interesting take on the universe.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  12. Doc Braun Registered Member

    Thanks for taking the time to give me that fascinating explanation, Stryder. If I was a film maker of the calibre of say, Christopher Nolan, making a film like "Inception", your theories would be perfect to apply. Not in the sense of energising a time machine, but as proxy energy sources for the dreamers' weapons, for instance.

    Unfortunately my film, being an Indie with unknown actors and little budget to speak of, is going to need "eye candy". Not too much of it, though, but enough to satisfy the audience's demand for such elements, which are obligatory in these kinds of films. The main theme of the story can be summed up by the quote, "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence".

    Basically the plot is that a scientists builds a time machine to travel to a future which he confidently assumes will be a far better one that the present. Having arrived there, he finds it's post-apocalyptic. While exploring the scene, he meets a survivor. The survivor learns of the time machine, and tries to take it, so that he can return to what he confidently assumes will be a better past, (grass is greener). They come into violent conflict. Therein are the obstacles for both players to overcome.

    Obviously it needs something - an unexpected outcome or a third intervening element that affects both of them. But obviously the focus of the film will be the human factor, and how people react and adapt/don't adapt. The science of time travel will have to take secondary place to the human science.

    I wanted the special effects to occur in the lab as he's trying to develop a fuel, mainly because that's where audiences expect to see spfx. The actual time travelling will be achieved by various compositing and particle effects in After Effects.

    But your essay certainly raises fascinating ideas. I can imagine a film centred around your theory and the testing of it, with a dramatic outcome. For that, though, I'm going to need a better screenplay and actors with the required skills. At present, my actors merely need to be able to emote wonder, dismay, and determination. They're amateurs, too, and I don't want to tax them beyond their abilites.... yet.

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    Thanks again for your suggestions and your theory. I have saved it for reference for a future script, (no pun intended).

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  13. Doc Braun Registered Member

    That's amazing, Trippy. A great effect. However, I could achieve much the same effect in After Effects by masking the beaker and applying a colour cycle filter to that fluid area.

    I any case, I've now settled on a method for getting the look that I want. I had wanted colour changes but after a little experiment I conducted yesterday I decided to go with the "glow sticks".

    I cut open a large glow stick and poured the contents into a beaker. Then I placed the glass vial into another beaker and carefully snapped it, releasing that fluid.

    When I poured one into the other, the effect was so impressive that I abandoned the idea of colour changes altogether. The two fluids instantly blend and glow very brightly. I was surprised at how much light it gives off, in fact. A test video that I made using a Canon 550D were very good. Even in the presence of some set lighting the glow was quite bright and the beaker even threw a noticeable glow on the nearby surroundings.

    So, all things considered, I will go with that. If I feel it needs a bit more oomph, I can add some particle effects such as sparks, electric flashes, etc, to the fluid in post.

    One again, thanks to all for your extremely generous help, and inspiring ideas. :bravo:
  14. John99 Banned Banned

    Wow, i always thought the fluid from glow sticks was toxic but after reading about it they are not toxic fluids. Just dont drink it.
  15. Doc Braun Registered Member

    Yes, Arthur mentioned that the fluids are an irritant, so some care is required.

    But they don't give off fumes and they behave themselves in test tubes etc, so with due care they should be a safe option for my actor. The scene calls for him to carefully pour some of the fluid into a beaker containing the other fluid. I will use large beakers for that shot, so that there's no risk of spillage. Also, he'll be wearing gloves and safety glasses, (which will be an anachronism but that can't be helped)

    Maybe I can trick out a pair of glasses to look turn-of-the-century. A coat of "brass" spray paint works wonders.

    Only one lingering question about using glow stick fluid. What might happen if I dropped a few small pellets of dry ice into that mixture?
  16. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

    If its more of a horror film/serious you could drop some blood from the professors hand into some luminol and get a cool bright blue glow.
  17. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

    Then you can claim human blood as the ultimate source of fuel! Mu ha ha ha ha! LOL
  18. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    I think you will possibly dull the amount of light, but try it and see.
    No issue with mixing the CO2 and the H2O2 in the stick.

    As for effects, you might consider use of a food dye in one of the solutions, so the end result doesn't look like the same color as a glow stick.

    The H2O2 though should be respected.
    Normal medical H2O2 is 3% and can be applied to cuts but you want to keep it out of your eyes.
    Don't know the % of H2O2 in these sticks but if its a bit higher than 3% it could do some serious damage to corneas.

    this is from the safety sheet on just 3% Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2)

    Eye Contact:
    Immediately flush eyes with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes, lifting lower and upper eyelids occasionally. Get medical attention immediately.

    You can probably find some old safety glasses that won't look out of place.

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  19. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Another option is to try one of the sensitizers I mentioned earlier - although their effectiveness depends entirely on specifics of the Luminol reaction.
  20. Doc Braun Registered Member

    I most probably will make some kind of spooky movie later on. I've acquired a ton of laboratory equipment for this film so I might as well get as much use out of it as I can. Glowing blood is a great idea. A character who has been accidentally irradiated, maybe... it's certainly topical!

    I see by that Wiki item that it's the iron in blood that reacts. So I suppose I could use some iron filings or crushed iron tablets to produce that added effect for this movie, too.

    Good tip!

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    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  21. Doc Braun Registered Member

    Okay, yes, never thought of that. I'd probably add a green dye because in movie language, green is almost always for all things nuclear.

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    Thanks for the advice, Arthur. I must admit I probably would have been pretty casual with the peroxide, but I'll take more care now.

    Yes, a pair of those old round specs would fit the bill perfectly! I should be able to get a pair and modify them.
  22. Doc Braun Registered Member

    Yep, those dyes are definitely on my "shopping list", Trippy.
  23. Doc Braun Registered Member


    Well, it is...... in....... Pennsylvania................

    ...what? where is it?.........oh...

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