More Ukrainian Events

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Yazata, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    The media hasn't been giving it much emphasis, but some of the reports that have been coming out of Ukraine Monday April 14 are a little unsettling.

    Today was supposed to see the beginning of a major Ukrainian operation to clear seized government buildings in eastern Ukrainian cities. Apparently it never happened. Instead, Reuters reports that Kiev's State Security Chief was sacked instead.

    (The Ukrainian Interior Ministry operates its own military organization, similar to America's National Guard, including anti-riot and internal security functions. Reportedly the Ukrainian Interior Ministry has about 30,000 troops.)

    The Irish Times (1 am Tue Apr 15 Irish time) writes "The performance of Interior Ministry forces in eastern Ukraine has shown they have little sense of loyalty to Kiev or appetite to fight the pro-Russian gunmen." Acting Ukrainian President Turchenov was quoted as saying that members of the security services "are unable to defend citizens and sabotage the performance of official functions".

    The LA Times is reporting (Apr 14) that the Ukrainian Interior Ministry has announced that it plans to "replace" 12,000 officers in the east, blaming "disloyal police" for failure of the "anti-terrorist operation". (That's 40% of the total force, probably most of those stationed in the east.)

    Acting President Turchenov has reportedly called for 12,000 "patriots" in the east to sign up in new units, apparently to replace the Interior Ministry troops.

    Obama was apparently briefed on all this Monday and he reportedly had a conversation with Putin that both sides describe as "frank and direct". (Diplo-speak for them being locked in a cage while trying to tear off each other's testicles. Vladimir ripped his shirt off, flexed his rippling muscles like a body-builder, but luckily he couldn't locate Barack's balls.)

    The NY Times is reporting that this PM Ukraine is asking the United Nations to send UN peacekeeping troops to eastern Ukraine.

    Apparently Kiev has called out the regular Ukrainian Army since they can't trust the internal security service. Somebody has photographed a Ukrainian column of 2 tanks and 20 armored personnel carriers on a road about 70 km northwest of Slaviansk, headng towards that town.

    There are reports of something happening at a small Ukrainian Air Force base outside Slaviansk. On Sunday, the Air Force planes stationed there were visible, On Monday, there was nothing, and local separatists say that they now occupy the base. So the Ukrainians apparently flew their planes out and abandoned the facility overnight.

    There are reports of "police" in Donetsk going over to the separatist side. It isn't clear whether these are local police or Interior Ministry troops.

    Ok... connecting the dots and employing a little imagination, I'll speculate that there was some kind of mutiny among Ukraine's Interior Ministry forces in eastern Ukraine today, perhaps when they were ordered to remove the separatists from the buildings they had seized.

    While it isn't clear that all of these Interior Ministry forces have gone over to the separatist side or what precisely they are doing, it is known that members of the Interior Ministry's elite 'Berkut' anti-terrorist police, which former President Yanukovich used as his personal enforcers, and which were ordered disbanded by the new government as soon as it took power, have indeed switched sides. They are still organized and still wearing their Berkut uniforms in the eastern cities and have been photographed spearheading separatist building takeovers.

    If this picture turns out to be anything close to the truth, then things have suddenly become much more grave for Ukraine. I sense that we will be hearing a lot more about this in the next few days, if Ukraine starts unraveling.

    Remember that Yanukovich was firmly entrenched in Kiev until the Interior Ministry troops turned on him. He was sent fleeing less than 24 hours later. My gut tells me that things may have once again become very shaky in Ukraine.
     
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  3. elte Valued Senior Member

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    Some in Russia want to restore the Soviet Union, with more recent griping against Gorbachev, who in fact had the right idea all along that it was time for Russia to join the modern world.
     
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  5. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Putin is making his play for Eastern Eukraine. It's the same playbook . Russian troops are already there. First Russian special forces take over police and government buildings. They then turn them over to organized criminals. Then the paid protestors show up.
     
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  7. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    If no one stops Putin he will take whatever he wants.
     
  8. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    it is sad tough to hear that the ukrainian army isn't fed properly especially considering all the food donations they have got Altough the inpending civil war is more inportant I can't help but think that the root of all these problems lay in it's corruption.
     
  9. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    Putin will eventually have to give in I think, if not for the economic sanctions he also threatend the baltic states and referenced the mostly russian populated city of narva in Estonia NATO could place extra troops there but one problem is that it's yust 2 hours (by car)and perhaps as fast as 5-10 minutes by jet from saint petersburg, that's way closer then those russian troops near donetsk (Ukraine). Russia would never allow it but (un)fortunatly it's NATO territory and Putin did sortof threaten them

    Turns out Estonia isn't that large and it's impossible the place any motorized vehicle anywhere in the country that couldn't reach saint petersburg in less then 8 hours

    link
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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  11. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing really changes. Theirs still a civil war going on in Ukraine, nobody does anything abouth the Obvious corruption, restoring Ukraine could be dificult and counterproductive in a way Russia did try with the cheap gas but Ukraine has a history of not paying it's debt.
    I believe all ukraines problems comes from lack of investment and corruption and those 2 should be tackled to stabilize the situation also a Russian John stewart that heckles the Russian media not only in the Ukraine but in the baltic would probably help
     
  12. cornel Registered Senior Member

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    They should 've given in to the demands of a federation, Ukraïne is too big to be governed centrally imo.
     
  13. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    Why? Can you give a reason that wouldn't apply double for Russia?

    Ukraine has many problems however if not for the recent problems it would have been the 2de largest economy of Putins proposed Eurasian Economic Union (Now it would have been 3th afther kazakstan but it won't join). Also of this Union 165 million people and a $2.3 trillion GDP, Russia provides 143million people and 2.118trillion GDP this makes me worry for abuse
     
  14. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    now that Crimea is in Russian hands and Putin is willing to invest in the economy would their be a change that the odd 200 000 crimean tartars in uzbekistan can return to Crimea, they've never been happy in uzbekistan and returning could change their income from 1 780 annualy to 14 818$ (they also would be home again)
     
  15. cornel Registered Senior Member

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    Russia already is a federation.
     
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Too big to be governed is that your story? Russia has more than 28 times the land mass and 3 to 4 times more population than the Ukraine. In fact there are 40 countries including Canada, The United States, and China which are more than 16 times larger by land area and more than 10 times larger in population. And last time I checked, none of them are federations. Russia is a federation in name only. There is nothing magical about putting the word "federation" in your name. It's reminiscent of the days when communist countries used to put "democratic" in their names. There was nothing democratic about totalitarian communist regimes. Russia is a fascist state, where the media and all organs of government are controlled by one person. If one says something Mr. Putin doesn’t like, you wind up in jail and lose your property.

    Your notion/opinion is just plain silly and ignorant.
     
  17. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    And the reason it will fall is because Putin has created a Mafia State within Russia which is very dependent on wealth.

    “The term has been used by some Western media to describe the political system in Russia under Vladimir Putin's rule.[13][14][15] This characterization came to prominence following the United States diplomatic cables leak, which revealed that US diplomats viewed Russia as a "a corrupt, autocratic kleptocracy centred on the leadership of Vladimir Putin, in which officials, oligarchs and organised crime are bound together to create a 'virtual mafia state.'"[16][17] Journalist and author Luke Harding argues that Putin has "created a state peopled by ex-KGB and FSB officers, like himself, [who are] bent on making money above all."[18] In the estimation of American diplomats, "the government [of Russia] effectively [is] the mafia." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_state

    Mr. Putin and his fellow oligarchs are very dependent on corruption and the wealth it brings them. When it hits them in their pocketbooks, they are going to notice and so are the Russian people. When they don’t get their pension checks, when inflation runs rampant, the Russian people are going to take notice.
     
  18. elte Valued Senior Member

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    That helps explain all the more why they wanted Crimea so much. It could provide more warm vacation land on the Black Sea. It doesn't seem a coincidence that after the Sochi Olympics at their other resort area, they went after a potentially much larger one in Crimea.
     
  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    That is true and I don’t think it is lost on the Ukrainian people. That is why the Euromaidan continues. For decades the Ukraine has been a Russian vassal state and suffers from the same corruption found in Russia. Ukraine’s military has been starved and deprived for decades because a strong Ukrainian government and military was not and is not in the interests of Vladimir Putin and his fellow oligarchs.
     
  20. Dazz Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry to interrupt.
    So is it correct to assume that Russia is simply "reclaiming" back their lands? (as if it were theirs but you get my point)
     
  21. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    No it would not be correct. That excuse was used by Hitler when he invaded and annexed his neighbors.
     
  22. Dazz Registered Senior Member

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    Well yes. And that is exactly what i was worried about. :/
     
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    That is one reason we are all concerned about it. Putin has many different excuses.
     

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