MONOGAMY [A St Valentines gift]

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by WANDERER, Feb 12, 2004.

  1. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Xev*

    Quote:The problem is, they'd spend so long fighting over who goes to who that they'd be too old to do anything once they'd met

    LOL. SWEET!!

    Hey if you are in the dark, and I am in the dark, then who is the whisperer? I thought this mysterious fourth party was you!
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    Well instead of making one go to the other, why not make them meet halfway? Preferably somewhere lacking in human habitation so that they aren't disturbed... they can become one with each other and with nature

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    .

    Ah yes love... when insults abound and the sexual tension is so raw and thick, one could cut it with a knife. I feel like I'm watching the discovery channel... 'the mating dance of the human species'.. with the voice of Attenborough in the background... "see how the male species teases the female to attract her attention, occasionally nipping to make sure that she is rivetted to him and only him... see how he defends his territory with strong words against other males.. watch how she is drawn to this and teases and insults the male in a similar fashion, thereby telling him of her mutual attraction..." LOL sorry, I think all this is beautiful

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    .. really..


    PS no insults meant.. lol
     
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    Whispers to Xev:

    ...I have a confession to make. Fenris and I correspond on occasion, so I pm'd him to ask 'what the dillio', you know, before Gendy popped on the scene, but he isn't quacking. War and rumours of love...doesn't get any better than this my friend.

    ...I am thinking of exchanging some of my frequent flyer miles just to get the ball rolling.

    ...Umm, I hope the two of you post pictures of the nuptials. We wouldn't expect to hear from either of you afterwards of course...you'd both be too busy to have time for this place.
     
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  7. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    LOL. Good post Bells, good post!
     
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    Doesn't this remind you a little of Taming Of The Shrew?

    ...and we the maiden spectators cackling in the background.
     
  9. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Lucysnow:
    Intimacy? Lovemaking? I'm picturing flying body parts if we fixed the two up.
    You exchange your frequent flyer miles - I'll supply the quilted vests and fencing masks for when they meet.
    I am the little girl whispering secrets to Wanderer, only - I couldn't tell him any if I was, because I don't have the first clue what's going on. But I should! Has Fenris dropped out of the race? Are our happy, happy pair finally corresponding privately? Who will break first? What the hell! I'm inquisitive as fuck - and this is just too tantalizing.

    Depressed...well I'm just moody in general, I haven't had a great week and I really can't stand to be around people now. Bad thing is, generally being around friends - or immersing myself in crowds, I went out for coffee earlier - makes me feel better, now it just gets worse.

    Currently I'm working on a couple of short stories, also I have this ongoing project: I have several years worth of assorted musings, gibberish, emotional outpourings and such written down on paper. I'm trying to convert it all into one journal, I'm almost finished too. But that's pretty much all I did today.

    Wish I had a place I could paint and irreversibly decorate as I please.

    Bells:
    Right, it's like a soap opera meets a docu show.
     
  10. 15ofthe19 35 year old virgin Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,588
    Here's what I don't get: W and G are both obviously desperately lonely and seeking attention so why don't they both do the sensible thing and get an ad on Yahoo or Match? Why try to turn Sciforums into a singles hook-up website? Just cut the bullshit, swap pics, IM for a bit, and then meet up. That's how online dating works. What sort of asshat goes to Sciforums to meet chicks anyway?

    And another thing dammit...so the fuck what if PM's are being exchanged? Sounds like paranoia to me. Must be those god-forsaken Canadian winters.

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  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    *Xev*

    Well why the hell are they paranoid about you? You hardly strike me as the 'whispering' tale-telling type and neither does the Fenris; there must be something else in this drama.

    Quote: Depressed...well I'm just moody in general, I haven't had a great week and I really can't stand to be around people now. Bad thing is, generally being around friends - or immersing myself in crowds, I went out for coffee earlier - makes me feel better, now it just gets worse.

    Well you know what I just emailed a friend ranting about sympathy and indifference; this past week I had an experience that just proved once more how shallow and utterly insipid people really are. You know someone draws you in just a little in friendship you extend your sympathy and loyalty and then whamo...they force you through their shallowness to be utterly hard and indifferent. Its like these people walk around with a two-faced mask or something! Showing sincerity with one and then revealing the lack of it with another. So strange, utterly baffling! Up goes the armor again! Its disappointing, people show they have less value than grains of sand. They make a mockery of friendship because they haven't a clue...NOT A CLUE!!...as to what it means. Thing is I am really a kind person, I mean when I care I really care, so when I have to put back on the armor with someone it really chips the joy out of the air...so I go to the hardware store, purchase materials and re-decorate the bloody room. Very therapuetic; I love the labor.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2004
  12. WANDERER Banned Banned

    Messages:
    704
    Lucysnow
    It is, when your standards are more than a perfect ass and well developed pecks.
    Sad but true. It’s a café with world reach, so more choices are available.
    Upside-You get to know a persons mind before his/her body.
    Downside- Distance.

    But this has been happening here all along Lucy, I just wandered by and exposed it all.
    Did I not once say that all the backstage stuff was far more interesting than the actual posts?
    I noticed that I was reading exchanges between people and had no clue what the fuck they were talking about.
    I realized that there were missing pieces of exchanges that were being passed along in private and so I started analyzing the posts themselves to put together the missing info.
    Like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. It’s kind of fun.
    The world of cliques, groups, gangs, attractions, rejection, loves, hates slowly started coming to light.
    Then Fenris Wolf pops in out of nowhere and starts blasting me. I realize there’s a correspondence between certain members. The rest was a matter of analysis, speculation, testing, probing and using what I know of human nature and evolutionary psychology. Profiling.

    Yes, but I always wait for her to beckon me to go further.
    A woman should always be in control of the attraction phase. She has more to consider, more at stake, more to test.

    Isn’t she though?
    Maybe only Fenris Wolfman really knows if her physical beauty is equal to her mental one.
    I’m curious as hell.

    But I get the feeling she’d be too confrontational all the time for my tastes and how could I ever live up to those high standards of hers. I’m godlike but not God.
    Wolfy must have spent months contemplating just that over a bottle of rum. He figured he’d bang her for a week or two, or for however long she went over there for, and then he’d move on before his sickness became too obvious and she tired of him.

    He’s pursuing or maybe he just discovered that he’s in check-mate.
    He might do some damage control in that subtle, patient way of his.
    He might be waiting for me to shoot myself in the foot and then yell: “Ah-ha!!!! See I told you, everyone!”
    Did you not read his last letter of capitulation?
    He wants to wait until my ‘fraudulent’ persona comes to light to re-enter the scene as a vindicated, warrior that lost through trickery rather than skill. Oh, how the crowd will cheer for him then and the princess may even invite him up to her antechambers for some tea and a quick-one to put another notch on his belt.
    He who laughs last and all that.
    What I don’t understand is how you can have the ‘hots’ for someone for so loooooooong and never actually make a move. Baffling.
    Or did he and was turned down? I suspect even wolfy would have had enough dignity to then just walk away, hurt but with his self-respect in tact.
    Beating around the bush when it’s the bush you want may be cute for a while but if you do it for too long, the bush starts thinking how ridiculous you look there circling and twisting and feigning and fawning.
    To the point man!!!! Say you want her, go for it come what may.
    You lose you move on, you win and you’ve wasted no fucking time
    So much insecurity just in wolfy’s romantic techniques.
    But I’m not privy to all the gory details so I must admit ignorance and merely speculate.

    No kidding?
    We have our third participant ladies and gentleman.
    Man! Fenris really gets around.
    Now before you protest that the relationship was platonic I ask you to notice the pattern.
    All women he pm’s/corresponds with [No males as far as I know. He won’t even pm me to tell me to stop]; all spirited intelligent, linguistically talented; all strong, well-read artistic and independent.
    See how one can deduce things with just a few bits of information?
    Now what does that tell you about him?

    I may be monogamous but I’m not pro-marriage

    By the way Lucy I thought you were going to post your take on the subject matter, just so we can get this show on the tracks again and off this docudrama.
    I’m interested on your female perspective.

    Xev
    Accurate as usual.

    There ain’t no ‘behind the scenes’ here.
    What you see is what I see.

    Can you imagine being in a relationship with gendanken?
    The constant bickering, the power struggles, and stress.
    Who will get up to get the milk will be a battle, who will be on top a symbolic test of domination.
    No thanks. Fenris can have her if she’ll have him.
    I think he’ll need to be doped-up through most of it though.
    That way he won’t feel her claws and fangs ripping into his flesh.
    He’ll feel it afterwards. I think he already does.

    You haven't watched much T.V. have you?

    Bells
    Somewhere where our screaming and yelling won’t disturb the neighbours you mean.

    Notice how most of the observers are female or homosexual.
    Women looooove docudramas.

    Fact:
    Women look down and down play their interests in the proceedings here.
    They use the ‘boys will be boys’ to minimize the fact that they love this show.
    They watch on with one eye, noticing the fighters sweat, the bulge of their muscles, the curve of their swords and they pretend they are above it all.
    Meanwhile they secretly root for their favourite fighter, they wonder, they fantasize, they ponder and they can’t take their eyes off of the bare-chested wrestlers.
    Typically female behaviour.
    When women wrestle one another, the battle is more subtle but also much more vicious.


    15ofthe19
    Just responding so everyone won’t just ignore you.
    But why are you masking your jealousy my man? Let it flow, let the anger out.
    Attack me. Say something about my sexual life, about my penis size or speculate about my loneliness.
    Do you wish it was you in the middle of this light?
    Do you wonder what they see in me, why I’m attractive to them in some sick way and why you are not?
    What do they see in him? You must ask yourself.
    Should I tell you? Should I disect you like a frog?
    Naaaa! You aren't that interesting.

    _an.droid_
    Now, now machine-man, you know I won’t ignore you.
    Why so testy?
    Do you want to regain your place in the center of my eye and you are using the Tasmanian Devil sexual practice of biting the one you find irresistible?
    My, how feminine of you.

    Maybe you can repost that picture of you, you wanted everyone to see.
    Which one was you, by the way?
    The forefront or foreground?

    Try posting a relevant opinion on the subject matter and I’ll reply in kind. Post opinions on me personally and I’ll reciprocate.
    The subject by the way is Monogamy, not Wanderer.

    Translation:
    This thread needs more me and less them.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    22,062
    Lucysnow

    I had been thinking more along the lines of Pride and Prejudice (the romantic in me is showing through in this comparison), but you hit the nail right on the head with the Taming of the Shrew... lol.. well said!

    Wanderer

    I was thinking more along the lines of the sounds of your 'love making' not waking the neighbours and giving the peeping Toms nightmares.

    Ah but we are no longer mere observers. This little tryst has now become a public debate where the observers take part in speculating and examining the flirtation. It's almost pornographical in the way that the 'observers' are directing and dissecting all that is being said.

    At the risk of sounding like a slack jawed yokel... Yah and?

    Everyone loves a docudrama. We immerse ourselves in the comings and goings of the antics of others. It sets our romantics hearts fluttering.. supposedly. Some of us however are just waiting to see who will become the sacrificial lamb. Men love docudramas just as much. They sit and watch, analysing the behaviour of the male and trying to determine who will be the alpha male at the end of the brawl. Life itself is a documentary.

    Speaking personally, I have no interest in these proceedings. I agree with Lucysnow, I'm just one of the cackling few lurking in the background. As for who I'm barracking for, I can't really say I have taken sides. The muscle flexing and measuring amuses me as it always does.

    Little boys in primary school are always so much more confident than men when it comes to women. If they liked a girl they'd just throw something at her head or come right out and say it, without fear of the consequence. If she says no, they just shrug, throw something else at her head and move on to the next little girl in pigtails. Men on the other hand ponder the outcome and try to fight off other possible suitors as a show of love, all the while keeping their true feelings hidden. Hence why I will actually admit to agreeing with you on this point:

    It's rare, Wanderer, that I agree with you on something. But you said it well.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Wanderer*

    Quote:It is, when your standards are more than a perfect ass and well developed pecks. Sad but true. It’s a café with world reach, so more choices are available.
    Upside

    Pec's aside, I find this medium cold. I need animation ya know. I also think it could too easily lead to disappointment...ones imagination takes flight as it does when reading a good novel, plus no one ever really knows who one is dealing with. But I have never been one to 'look' for romance, parternership or love; there is something to be said for chance.

    Quote:He figured he’d bang her for a week or two, or for however long she went over there for, and then he’d move on before his sickness...

    But how or why did you form such a hard opinion of Fenris? He seems more down to earth than an active 'player' but then again who knows. Like I said no one ever really knows who one is dealing with. I intiuite him far more amiable and sincere than you describe. I read him as a practical man.

    Quote: Now what does that tell you about him?

    I don't know. I have never discovered any 'game' in him. Like I have written elsewhere, I have been pm'd by various members but it has always been of the pen-pal variety, or a chance to help in more practical terms. I have discovered that people seek friendship more than anything; a friend outside of their lives whom they can share some confidence or common interest. Fenris showed concern after I exposed myself to Spookz and Tiassa and landed in a flame war. We share a love of the South East Asia and have both been exposed to its wonders, its never been more personal than that. He strikes me as being a better person than you envision.

    Quote: may be monogamous but I’m not pro-marriage

    Ah back on topic. Well that is a surprise really...I would have imagined you the 'marrying' type, so do tell what have you against marriage? The only dislike I have concerning the ceremony is it strikes me as a contract one makes with the State and I think it is no business of the State. Two people who find commitment with each other do not need binding contracts...ones word is enough and no one can harness an unwilling heart. I do like the idea of ceremony and ritual in front of family, friends or for the benefit of two, but that's a just a girl thing...you know princess for a day and all that satin!

    Quote: By the way Lucy I thought you were going to post your take on the subject matter, just so we can get this show on the tracks again and off this docudrama.
    I’m interested on your female perspective.

    Well if I had who would have noticed? I thought it best to wait for the 'sparks' to settle or at least for the 'games' end as I was as spellbound as everyone else. I will post it later...after applying my second coat of paint on the walls.
     
  15. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    Pm you to stop to what, Wanderer? Whatever makes you believe I have any need or desire to actually speak to you, let alone ask you to stop whatever it is you think you're doing. You're an intelligent man, and your essays were good, mostly. But reading them and finding you in here was a little like reading "Conan" when I was young... and finding out later the author was Robert E Howard. So very disappointing. Thought I'd pop in and mention it before you look any more foolish, since you were asking for me. Polite, aren't I?

    Do yourself a favour, and check the sole of your boot. You won't find any fur there, no blood, no pulped flesh, no broken bones. You missed. It was a little like being in a swordfight with an intensely homicidal blind man. Fascinating stuff. The adrenaline pumped once or twice and I felt the woosh from a near miss or two, but overall, it wasn't very dangerous. But you keep practising now, won't you. You'll need it if you're going to continue with... whatever it is you think you're doing. Look at them up there, in the bleachers, watching and cheering you on. All you'll ever have, aren't they? Take a bow for them. Keep throwing the pigs blood on the walls and telling them it's mine... they believe you, some of them.

    Read up on the Fenris Wolf. The name wasn't chosen at random.

    Oh, and... Seeya, "Mate". I'm looking forward to that essay. Don't keep me waiting too long now, will you?
     
  16. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,779
    Android:
    ?!

    Allright, now you're confusing the bloody shit out of me: you're a homo? I thought you were a girl. And you were Dearprudence, that stupid twat I've been flaming since I met her...?

    You're a weird one.

    Bells:

    Taming of the Shrew, huh? Thinking so makes you a hairy little Caliban.

    Lucysnow:
    About this whole marriage- what bothers me most is the bait America makes out of marriage. They dress the status up with financial security and benefits, and we all damn well know its the single people picking up the damn tab. We're the ones helping these breeders get Nintendo systems for their stupid children, we're paying their monstrous Chritmas bills and new bathroom curtains, their Gerber their child safety bullshit, their welfare and government cheese.............we bear the yoke so that they can raise children that will either drop out of high school or end up exactly where they are without progression beyond vicsious cycles. And if they're lucky they'll end up raising a perfectly heatlhy nobody that will one day be a substitute teacher or a cashier at Walmart.

    I would happily pay through the nose if these people were worth it- but I doubt any of these morons are raising Picassos, Rossinis, and Feynemanns.
     
  17. WANDERER Banned Banned

    Messages:
    704
    _an.droid_
    I wanted you to see? Hardly.
    It was my unwilling agent spookz that posted that photo.
    He thought by doing it he was doing me harm.
    When he realized that he was flattering me he decided to write a bad review for my book instead.
    I miss that little fellow.
    He was a breath of stale air.

    You are kind of hard to miss.
    That photo was huge.

    Thank you.

    Fenris Wolf
    Thank you for appreciating my thoughts.
    My persona you can hate, if you like.

    But I am not your enemy, little one.
    Odin awaits his death by you. Will you recognize him when you see him?

    That’s it, keep up with the denial when the damage is done. Try to save face.
    The writing is on the wall and it’s written with your blood.

    I don’t intend to continue unless you taunt me further. My work is done with you, you’ve paid your price and now I pity you a little. See I do have compassion.
    You did ask for it but there are more sick animals in this zoo that need taming.

    This is hardly all I have. I have been here only 4-5 months and already I’ve uncovered a sordid little love triangle or square or pentagon.
    The full cast of characters is still left hidden and only your battered and bleeding corpse lies in the open arena in front of prying eyes.
    But in the audience, in the cheering crowd, are other players; viler, decrepit thespians plotting Caesar’s demise and manufacturing clever schemes.
    Ephialtis is obsessed with…. power…and he falls to the depths to get to it, he goes to the Persians and shows them the hidden path of betrayal.
    Such lust, such need, such insecurity and deviance.
    And the queen?
    She plays with all of you for her entertainment, she uses and abuses and laughs as men fall bleeding and sweating at her feet; how typically female.
    Do you see the real villain here, do you smell her/him/it?
    It is not me.

    Bells
    Wait and see. Things might get a lot more interesting soon.
    We’ll see.

    Sometimes men appear to be men but are really little, little boys and supposed indifferent women, are really bit players in grand plays.

    Lucysnow
    I think you are very wise.
    Little girls, acting like mature women, should take your advice here.
    Expectations, heightened ones in particular, rarely meet reality eye-to-eye.
    One must always doubt ones own eyes.

    It is true that I’ve focused on his bad attributes and neglected his good ones but he asked for it when he decided to see me as his romantic nemesis, when there are others that sleep in his bed.
    I think Fenris is one of the more intelligent members of this Forum but he made a terrible mistake in making himself my enemy when I had little interest in his secret affairs.

    It’s too…institutionalized and official, like getting a death sentence.
    Romance should be easily entered into and exited from and there should be no piece of paper forcing commitment.

    You can have a ceremony without signing papers.

    I think this place needs a good paint job as well.
    I was hoping you could refocus the thread on the subject because all this other stuff is beginning to give me a stomach ache and nausea.
    The odours are unbearable.
    Plus I’m interested in your perspective on sexual relations and gender differences.
    Looking forward to whatever you have to say.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2004
  18. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,062
    Lucysnow

    Beautiful! The notion of chance always makes the prize that much more worthwhile and beautiful. When one looks for romance and love, one will always want to keep on looking elsewhere to find something better. But when it happens on you by chance, it makes it that much more breathtaking and want for keeping. A friend of mine who actively looked for romance, partnership and love found what she thought was it. They have been together for several years but she is unhappy. She had this ideal which no man could ever live up to and as a result she is constantly on the lookout for someone better. They argue constantly as the poor man is not what she looked for or constantly dreamed of deep down. When one hunts for it as she has done, one will always be on the lookout for more.

    LOL, I know what you mean. I too used to think it would be nice to have such a ceremony in front of family and friends... with the duchese satin, flowers, cake, etc. That was until the time I helped my cousin organise her wedding. After that nightmarish year, I decided that the stress and absolute pain could be spent elsewhere. Not to mention the amount of money. For me now, if I were to ever have such a ceremony, it would have to be some place far away, some place beautiful, and somewhere where there aren't the constant hoard of relatives who always seem to 'drop in'... lol. Although like you, I don't find the notion of marriage attractive as it should never be a contract but a statement or declaration of love between the partners without the interference or involvement of the state.

    _an.droid_

    You're Dearprudence? Oh I so wish that people would keep their own usual names in here, save me the need to think

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    . I always found your posts to be different and refreshing. Glad to see that the name change hasn't changed the post style lol.

    Gendanken

    You're comparing me to a deformed creature? How 'cute'. But plastic surgery helped with the deformaties and waxing took care of the fur. I am now like any other. And I didn't think you'd get offended at the thought of you taming Wanderer... heh..

    Wanderer

    How can it not? We have love, intrigue, mystery and dangerous wordplay (instead of sword play). All that is needed now to turn this into a true melodrama is a murder with an ending of 'the butler did it'.

    Wouldn't really say indifferent. Like all true supposed women (with our feminine ways..) I am waiting for the true romance to follow through. But if I am a 'bit player', can I not be slaughtered in the drawing room? I'd rather go out with a bang. Possibly one that has me ******** in a spectacular fashion... lol. Ah well. As in all plays and in life, there are always bit players, be they male or female. Without them life would be boring and uninteresting. After all, who else would one tease?

    Ah but a romance that is easily exited from is not true love. Unless of course you mean exiting in the technical sense where divorce lawyers need to be called in if it is legally binding. Romance or love is never easily exited from emotionally though. If it were, it would not be true love or romance. If one can exit such a relationship without pain, then personally, it can't be true love.
     
  19. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Gendy*

    I agree with you, the tax system does benefit those with families while single folk pick up the tab.

    Quote:I would happily pay through the nose if these people were worth it- but I doubt any of these morons are raising Picassos, Rossinis, and Feynemanns.

    Yes but is that really what you would want? A world full of genius with no levels or degrees? High standards are only high because there is something other to compare with. Genius would lose its meaning; like having a world where everyone was physically perfect. Anyway who would work in the super market? Certainly not those of superb intelligence and remarkable talent. Genius will always be in the minority no matter what milieu they are born into. No, I think the real problem is population growth in general. The world is becoming dysgenic and 'dumbed down' because there are more and more people and the system can only survive if those people are mindless consumers who breed more consumers. It is low-quality goods, services, information, entertainment that creates the dumbing effect. The system doesn't need self-reliant, free thinking, individuals and what have you; it needs people who would choose McDonalds, Nintendo, Barbara Cartland, Grisham, Twizlers, Nike this and that, Banana Republic, Old Navey, Barnes and Noble, Starbucks, M&M's, Captain Crunch, Cheerios, walkmen, DVD's, MP3's, five hundred channels, Hummers, SUV's of every variety, Ivory Soap, Kleenex, Bayer Aspirin, Herbal Essence, Mega Malls, Mega supermarkets, Entertainment Tonight, The Nick and Judy Show, Tele Tubbies, MTV, Club Med, Disney World, etc, etc, etc, ...Oh and who can forget Classic Coca Cola.

    ...but I don't think that marriage is the cause of all this. Its the creation of need...endless need and the family unit is the best most reliant agent to pursue these 'things'.

    When they can't get you that way they use the 'organic' gimmick. Morningstar Vegiburgers, Westsoy, Birkenstock, All natural this and that, Made with all fruit this and that, orange juice with added vitamin C, Extra Calcium laxatives, Mega vitamins and mega gyms, Tom Beller, Oprah, Deepak Chopra, All natural vegetable soap, We did not experiment on animals Loreal, etc, etc, etc,

    If you think you're so high-brow they get you like this:
    $85 for Burberry flip-flops, $115 for Lacoste shirt, $1000 per ounce for La Mer face cream, Vogue, Versace, Gucci, Perrier, Dean and Deluca, Kobe burgers, etc., etc., etc.,

    Choose a non-mega gym you pay more. Go to the health food store you pay more. Purchase 100% organic food grown locally and again you pay more. Anything of quality they will add a higher price. As long as were are dependent we are destined to be whores. Choose to buy some undeveloped land, join a food co-op or grow your own food, live off the grid, homeschool your kids, refuse a credit card/cash only, refuse a bank account, barter for goods and services or make your own soap, clothes, use natural ordinary products like white vinegar to wash your floor and they will send the FBI faster than you can say "I don't pay taxes".

    ...but I am way off topic.


    I am going to use two of Wanderer's quotes as a basic guide so this doesn't become too broad.

    Quote

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    o you think women find sexual gratification in such vulgarity? Well, maybe some do.Women require spiritual connections, even the strong ones, they need communion, they need real emotion,not fakery. They need a safe haven to become vulnerable in and feel safe despite it. A woman’s sexual gratification begins in the mind before it moves to her nether regions. A man must engage a woman’s imagination, inspire her into orgasm. This requires a sense of belonging, love, safety, the ability to expose vulnerability and not be laughed at or be looked down upon.


    Yes Wanderer there are some women who do enjoy vulgarity however you want to define the term. The sexaul region runs up and down a psychological continuum that begins with the vulgar (the most base) and extends to the sublime. Where one finds themselves within that continuum depends on how one was hard-wired, what psychological symbols or triggers is related to the sex act; if its pain=pleasure, punishment=pleasure, shame, humiliation or abuse equated with pleasure, then that is what a person will secretly or openly pursue or create for themselves...and they will enjoy it. I think this is obvious. Take the same woman with this disposition and treat her sexually as if she were not hard-wired this way and she may climax but she will not experience ecstasy because the experience would not have penetrated deeply enough into her psyche. That's why I love the Luis Brunel film Belle De Jour because it outlines all this so perfectly. The main character, Severine, seems like a nice well behaved, uptight, bourgeois woman with the nicest, most sympathetic husband imaginable (a surgen even) but her erotic fantasies betray her as a different woman. It is said that whether male or female these dispositions are acquired because of trauma or some incident that forms a maladaptive sexual attitude or prediliction and I agree but only to a point; the outcome of these type of incidents always produces different results in different people. To approach a woman like Severine for example in a fashion her imagination demands would not be fakery but more to the truth. That would be her 'spiritual connection' because that is the spiritual realm she inhabits; the level in which it operates and the only one she could connect with. A persons 'spirit' if sullied, damaged or hurt will display this even if only in the secrecy of thought! I think sex, how we imagine sex, is a very good indicator on what constitutes someones spiritual nature. Therapeutically sex can either support this type nature or heal and extend it, opening a person so they can transcend the realm of the base, but this would only occur if a partner is in tune to their deepest need which is usually unknown to us. Well for many it is unknown anyway; tapping into that very vulnerable area pre-dispossing someone to any prediliction, but that initself would constitute an act of love not an attempt towards sex for pleasure.


    But if one is freed from shame/humiliation/abuse/pain/punishment/fear then they can exist within themselves on a higher spiritual realm and will connect with another on a higher level of emotional consciousness and physicality; its this realm you are describing above. Here is where true beauty arrives because lovers are then free to 'deify' each other (a form of worship), unmask each other and discover what is already sublime in each other. Its a beautiful thing and also very rare. When one sees nothing in sex but the flesh they miss the point. The flesh is not the organ of arousal but the imagination as you pointed out. To make love to the whole of a person is to recognize their temporal and immortal divinity as human beings in communion (as jane said to mr. rochester "Its as if we passed through the grave and stood at gods feet naked as we are." Oh those Brontes!). One cannot do this without feeling someone on a very deep level; and I do mean feel them not simply have feeling for them. It doesn't happen too often because that would take patience (not to mention an uncanny chemistry) and people do not know how to build up to the sex act. I remember once someone (a guy) many years ago asking me if I have ever cried during sex, not from distress but from joy. The question became lodged in my head because I couldn't possibly imagine what kind of sexual experience could provoke me to tears. It makes me laugh to think about it because I hadn't a clue as to what he was talking about...he knew it too. And no he wasn't a lover...he could just see what I had not experienced.

    Most do not understand that like boiling water sex is a slow simmer before enough heat is built up to a full boil. Very few even take the time to explore the body, discover it; hell they don't even know their own bodies! Fire ignited between two people produced from a long seduction through words, gesture, and understanding can set up a tension leaving a woman breathless in orgasm just from a kiss alone. That kiss left without any further touch can linger in her body as feeling longer than there are days in the week. She can be wet all day just from recalling the moment that inspired sensation. Just let any other guy try seducing a woman after she's experienced that with someone. OY! Strangely men don't seem to have this same recall-pleasure in the same way as a woman. I mean he can form an erection from a thought but he can't sit quietly in a room full of people and experience orgasm inspired by thought without touch and not having anyone notice. The real orgasm is a rumble, a silent tidle-wave throughout the entire body. Its not all that heavy yes, yes, yes and OO OO Ahhhh I see potrayed in porn or in film and it is much more powerful and satisfying than the clitoris orgasm; its the anticipation you see, the building of tension and intensity...but no one knows how to wait anymore. Having sex with someone too soon can KILL passion, dilute it. Few know how to delve into another persons head and understand the nuances behind their desire. Few understand the level of vulnerability necessary to become truly who they are in sight of another. Lovemaking is no longer an art, so all we have is sex without emotional or psychological content, sex exposed without understanding is what makes it vulgar (not the thrusting, sucking and god knows what else). The courtesans of old understood this well and it is this understanding that made them famous not the sex which a man could acquire anywhere for a pittance or nothing at all, nor was it their beauty because many were actually not that pretty at all; what they understood was the use of mind in seduction that leads towards sex.

    This overexposure we see today in the music videos and magazine covers lacks any sensual sensibility. There is nothing erotic about a room full of naked people, or a bevy in booty shorts and bikini top (to cover is to uncover because it forces the other to imagine behind the garment). Cocoa Chanel understood this well and there are still some designers inspired by the past who know how to dress a woman sexually without lowering the skirt line or plunging the breast line. Imagination is discovering what is unseen and unknown.

    The fakery you speak of I believe comes from the Hallmark culture. It has turned seduction and romance into a formula like a barbara cartland novel. There are the roses, and the stupid dinners, and the sentimental nonsense dribbling from peoples lips...and often these type of dates don't want to get to know you at all they are just waiting to attain sex. To not fill the air with nonsense, to know when silence is in order, tension, this is all out of Hallmarks reach.


    Men and women ultimately are raised with different myths concerning sex and relationship. Women are raised to believe that sex=love and then many become almost schizophrenic about the whole affair because they lie to themselves and feel as if they must be in love when all they really are is horny and all the guy is doing is hitting it right. If they don't call it 'love' they will feel guilt/shame because society teaches women to be ashamed of raw sexual desire for pleasure's sake outside of commitment or 'love'. Actually it surprises me how many women there are like this, I know a few and they often disturb me because they are so fucking neurotic. They want to be wild but cannot so they inebriate themselves into freedom of action only to feel shame. I am always moved to say to someone the day after they complain of a night before...'Well you didn't feel shame last night when you were being groped on the dance floor by so and so!' Its the pretense displayed that I dislike. You can always tell this type because they have to have an excuse to act out. 'Oh dear it was the booze'. No it wasnt you were having a ball! But admitting this to themselves would make them think of themselves what society says you should think of yourself 'slut', 'whore' etc. Then there are the dames who pretend that all they need is sex, in keeping with the times, and then don't understand why they feel so empty because they are not being made love to. I see these two scenerios happening all over the place and I believe its because we are in-between myths. There is no new mythological construct to instruct us subliminally for this new age, a bridge from one sensibility to another because times have changed. So we are here now with all of our sexual freedoms all the while being fed an old myth that says a woman is looking for love all the time. Well that isnt always true! Sometimes sex is just fine especially when we are exploring our sexuality and attempting to understand sensuality (something society sends messages saying you should do and then chastises you if it happens. Now you see why so many women are hardwired to shame/guilt/punishment=pleasure etc?)

    Men on the other hand are raised with two myths: One states that women should be canonized like their mothers (madonna) and the other tells them that they should be used like a whore. Again the schizophrenia sets in and then men are playing at sincerity just to 'hit it' or act out his baser sexual desires only to devalue the woman (project his shame) as a slut or whore. This same guy of course will try and seek out a woman he deems a 'good girl' who symoblizes a certain purity though pedestrian it may be, and then being as secretive as Severine concerning his baser desires and he will tell himself with her he 'makes love' and maybe he does. But why can't he explore all of his instincts with the one he is with? Why split his base/sublime desire? Its because he fears being shamed. He doesn't believe he can experience what he want's to experience with his 'good girl'. Its almost a cliche "I fuck them, I make love to you". This is why women sex-trade workers are always in demand! I despise hypocrisy in sex...really. So there is a double-standard of course but meanwhile both sexes have desires base and sublime. Men are simply not penalized for acting out on their desires.

    What we choose to explore, how and with whom is a matter of self-awarenss. People need to know themselves as a sexual animal, lover, giver and receiver of pleasure (some people can do neither well) and finally as higher communion with another we pride because we have learned to pride ourselves. We are taught to be ashamed to speak sex, think sex and act on sexual instinct...No! I say speak with awareness so you can truly hear yourself, think with awareness so you can truly understand yourself, and act with awareness as it constitutes how you think and feel.

    (smiles)...and forgive yourself if you regret it in the morning. Hahaha!
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2004
  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    Quote:You can have a ceremony without signing papers.

    I agree.

    *Bells*

    Quote: When one looks for romance and love, one will always want to keep on looking elsewhere to find something better. But when it happens on you by chance, it makes it that much more breathtaking and want for keeping.

    Yes you make a really good point, and its funny because people don't see the dynamic, I mean they don't see that this is what they are doing.

    Quote:That was until the time I helped my cousin organise her wedding. After that nightmarish year, I decided that the stress and absolute pain could be spent elsewhere. Not to mention the amount of money.

    LOL. Yessss. I cannot believe how much money people are willing to throw into a wedding. These stupid ugly halls and six foot cakes cost a fortune. There is a florist in Manhattan that charges hundreds of dollars (like six or seven hundred!) just for some special bouquet or something. And now there is marriage fever all over America. They have wedding shows and what not; its frightening. I would want a ceremony but I don't really have a vision of one, I think I would want something just between myself and the beloved but it doesn't have to be anywhere special or faraway...I'm jaded now travel is always an 'adventurous journey' not a 'getaway' or vacation. Maybe its not the wedding at all I am interested in...damn it Bells its the fucking dress! I should just buy one and prance around the house in it. It'll be alright everyone thinks I'm crazy anyway!
     
  21. WANDERER Banned Banned

    Messages:
    704
    Bells

    Unfortunately, unlike in movies and fiction books, some mysteries remain forever unsolved or unexposed.

    I was talking about technical departure where one leaves and can physically depart and then detach himself from the emotional baggage in time.
    Lawyers prolong the suffering.
    The reverse is also possible. Sometimes the romance had died and all that is left is a piece of legal paper. That’s when one regrets ever having signed his name on that dotted line.

    And No I never, ever have. Much too smart for that.


    Lucysnow

    Very accurate, again. Many ‘elitists’ fail to see how necessary stupidity is and how they can benefit from it, if they manage to disassociate themselves from their influence.
    This ’disassociation’ is the hardest thing to do though. Some choose solitude, others battle, most a mixture of the two.

    Yes. Unless it is corrupted by the system, as Plato predicted his ideal philosopher Kings would be.
    The trick is to attempt to detach oneself from the throng and manage to set-up a tribe within a tribe, the essence of elitism.
    When this detachment and reconnection with your own kind is managed the anger, hatred and vengeance subsides and in its place pity and good humor reigns.
    The only way Nietzsche could be so forgiving and noble with his emotions, for example, is because he was wealthy enough to not be dependant on those idiots he so despised.
    His magnificence of spirit, he so espoused, was due to detachment and independence.
    For us less wealthy free-spirits that still have to labor in the world of morons and dolts with status, this level of generosity is tempered by hate, disgust and bitterness for being forced to exist amongst the masses with no way out but only through sacrifice and struggle. It is sometimes painfully frustrating that the only way out of the system is a long period of a larger participation in it.

    I would define it as any act that degrades, devalues and diminishes the individual.
    So I would suggest that promiscuity, practiced by either gender, diminishes the value of ones sexuality.
    Just as when love and compassionate, given freely and openly and indiscriminately, lose their worth so to when one gives his/her physical being to another or to multiple others arbitrarily one diminishes the value of the gift.
    A slut isn’t appreciated or respected, not because of her need for sexual contact and her passionate desire that finds an outlet but because she indulges it and in it with little thought and little self-respect. Her/His body becomes common property and it loses its refinement and nobility.
    When anyone can enjoy something it loses its significance.
    Monogamy can be a product of prudishness and moral enslavement to the system but I’m trying to define a type of monogamy based on discriminating tastes, pride and self-esteem.
    We have to separate the two forms as distinct manifestations of a similar phenomenon.
    The practice can be compared to dieting for the purpose of fitting in to some cultural ideal and living up to external superficial standards and dieting because one is careful at to what enters ones body, ones need to remain lean and efficient in ones movements and in ones pride in not wanting to be a slave to gluttony and need.

    The question isn’t whether one enjoys something. Man is hard-wired to enjoy many things in times of severity. We enjoy fats and sugars because they were rare and valuable, in a past environment of poverty, for developing large brains and as large energy sources, but in times of superfluity they become dangerous.
    The surrender to immediate gratification and entertainment is exactly what is wrong with this world.
    It is easy to just surrender to need and merely enjoy existence because enjoyment is how nature ensures our participation in her game.
    But man is in pursuit of power which sometimes goes against nature herself.
    The balance of maintaining pleasure in living by not succumbing to extreme asceticism and maintaining self-control and dignity by not succumbing to extreme hedonism, is one I am personally aware of.
    I’m in the midst of trying to find that balanced middle ground, of Dionysian/Apollonian harmony within me. I’ve always been a control junky and so my Apollonian side dominates my psyche, but in recent years and after the death of my father last year, I’ve been trying to regain my Dionysian side and allow myself the abandonment of letting go and dancing with the rhythms of the cosmos.
    I’m close.

    I agree.
    Here this hypersensitivity, I always mention, can be helpful.
    Only a discerning eye can connect with another on any deeper level consciously and so the maintenance of that connection becomes easier, whereas when the connection is subconscious and instinctual it quickly wanes and vanishes giving rise to the need to find another and then another and then another….

    Exactly!
    You attract types that want to see themselves in you [No pun intended here] and you choose the ones you see yourself in.
    So if you attract morons and you choose morons, then you are a moron.
    If you attract shallow people and you choose to associate with them, then you are one of them.
    It doesn’t matter if you know they are shallow or if you tell yourself it is your nature or if you are doing it to entertain yourself or pleasure yourself, the act of association sullies you.
    When you live with pigs and eat with pigs, it don’t matter if you are human, you are a pig.
    Action speaks louder than words, remember?
    You are what you eat, how you act and who you hang out with.
    These things define how you see yourself and how you think of yourself.

    I think you and I are communicating nicely here.
    Many males, and females I might add, see sex as just a physical act of quenching thirsts and it means nothing beyond this. It is like eating or drinking.
    A physical need being placated and the other being nothing but a product for consumption. This stance, this superficial act diminishes not only the other but the self as well, since it manages to offer itself in kind as a product and it devalues the act of sex itself.
    It says: “I’m a product you are a product, with pretty packaging and good advertising perhaps, so let’s consume each other and then throw away the wrapping.” Then sex becomes like eating a nice juicy steak. You cook it, you anticipate eating it, you eat it, you enjoy the moment of fulfilment and then later on you feel a little bloated and eventually you defecate it out and forget about it since a another meal awaits your attentions. Here we can see how modern day consumerism has influenced interpersonal relationships in general. People fail to see how idea, ideals and philosophies ensure a state of being. You cannot separate what and how one thinks from what one is and how one relates to the world around.

    The romantic ideal is when the sexual act itself is only a peak, a single point of contact, in a much deeper and profound intimacy.
    It is when we see all the attributes we love and appreciate and respect in the other and we wish to recreate it in a new being through procreation that we know our love is true and honest.
    The act of procreation should be one where we try to save the attributes we see in the other for eternity and sex is the catalyst for this. The sexual act can be seen as the attempt to fuse two bodies and two spirits into one so that a new beginning springs forth and the love and respect and loyalty materializes with the birth of a new being in which this momentary fusion lives on; it is the act where two spirits, faced with oblivion, meaninglessness, mortality and indifference, bind together in defiance against the powers that be and refuse capitulation.
    Two warriors standing up to fate and merging their powers into one.

    I had a similar personal experience once.
    I had just finished having sex with a woman I was seeing and I noticed she was crying afterwards.
    I was of course confused and she explained it by saying that she felt happy.
    I couldn’t relate and I was even a little dismayed by it. I couldn’t decide if I should be insulted or flattered. That was the only time, our first time, that this occurred so I forgot about it. What you said reminded me of it.

    I don’t think many men can relate to this level of intimacy. Popular culture tells men to distance themselves from emotions and deeper vulnerability, since it insinuates weakness.
    Most men can have sex, some better than others, in the animalistic raw way but few can make-love and connect with their partner in more than just physical ways.
    That’s why for them women become interchangeable and non-distinct. They lose their personality and become pieces of ass, breasts and vaginas.
    With the sexual emancipation of women the same phenomenon is repeating itself in females. Men are losing their personalities and are becoming penises and sperm donors or just providers.
    Is it any wonder then that marriage is in such shambles and a sham I laugh at?

    I've never experienced that.

    God, women are strange creatures. Strange and wonderful.

    Is not this impatient, immediate gratification mentality exactly what is wrong with our society? Can this same phenomenon not be witnessed in all areas of human interactions and behaviors?
    Growing credit card debts, bankruptcies and growing waistlines attest to this inability to control consumption and a need for instantaneous satisfaction.
    That is what I mean by controlling instinct and making pleasure more pleasurable through power over self.

    For two people that love, respect, trust and who are totally committed to each other, everyday is Valentines Day. There is no need to be reminded to appreciate and worship the others spirit. One does so daily with simple gestures.

    It’s this pretence I despise as well.
    I always found that booze and anger were a bad excuse. In fact I believe when inebriated, by either alcohol or emotion, the individual expresses inner truths more honestly and not the reverse.
    If you want to get to the truth, get the other angry or drunk and his real self will uninhibitedly come out.

    I know the type.
    The type that often go for the ‘dangerous’ guy, and then bitch about being treated like garbage by him.
    What the fuck did you expect? You go for the gorilla to get your fix then you should expect a few head buts, bruises and morning-after feelings of emptiness and shame.

    The ideal, of course, a balance between sexual gratification and emotional spiritual connection.
    We can dream we dreamers.

    In Greece they say that a perfect woman is a lady in public and a whore in private.

    I think you have to understand how thoroughly men can separate their emotions from their desires.
    They can fuck any woman with little thought or contact and still love and respect another.
    Most of us have a problem mixing the two together and either raise women on pedestals or demean them like dirt.
    I believe this is also the consequence of diminished awareness in males as to their own human nature.
    Most men have little psychological insight about themselves and as a consequence about other human beings. Very few men are sensitive to details in human interactions and remain transfixed on the surfaces, even if they may be capable of dissecting other complicated abstract ideas easily. Women are superior in the area of human interactions and in their ability to perceive character. This because females being weaker physically are more reliant on exuding influence and power through more subtle means and using more subversive methods. So they need to be attuned to emotional factors and empathize with another’s being. They are intuitive psychoanalysts.
     
  22. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    Your analogy is incorrect, Wanderer. Ephialtis did not know the way.
     
  23. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Wanderer*

    Quote:I think you have to understand how thoroughly men can separate their emotions from their desires...


    Why is this? How are men taught to split emotion from desire? What purpose does it serve?

    Quote:In Greece they say that a perfect woman is a lady in public and a whore in private.

    (smiles) I believe it.

    Quote:The ideal, of course, a balance between sexual gratification and emotional spiritual connection.
    We can dream we dreamers.

    Yes but a frustrating one! I get the feeling it is easier for men to find this balance with a woman than vice versa. Would you agree?

    Quote:For two people that love, respect, trust and who are totally committed to each other, everyday is Valentines Day. There is no need to be reminded to appreciate and worship the others spirit. One does so daily with simple gestures.

    But people take each other for granted too soon. In the beginning lovers are inspired by their passions and then when familiarity and comfort sets in they soon forget those 'simple gestures'. Its primarily the reason why color begins to wane in a relationship and monogamy thrown to the wayside.


    Quote:Is not this impatient, immediate gratification mentality exactly what is wrong with our society? Can this same phenomenon not be witnessed in all areas of human interactions and behaviors?Growing credit card debts, bankruptcies and growing waistlines attest to this inability to control consumption and a need for instantaneous satisfaction.

    Yes I believe so, but most would never recognize this behaviour as maladaptive because it has become the norm. Discipline/self control are not necessary or welcome ideals in a culture that thrives and survives on consumption. The 'emptiness' is never seen as part of the package, a component in something wider, so everyone assumes it is they alone who are the problem (and they are) but not completely...they are being bombarded with messages everyday from the time they are born telling them that they are not enough; that they are what the consume. That image and identity can be purchased because we are what we own.

    Quote:God, women are strange creatures. Strange and wonderful.

    Well I am glad you think so, but most men men have no patience for or show curiosity towards female sexuality.

    Quote: With the sexual emancipation of women the same phenomenon is repeating itself in females. Men are losing their personalities and are becoming penises and sperm donors or just providers. Is it any wonder then that marriage is in such shambles and a sham I laugh at?

    Yes marrige is a shambles and as throw-away as the participants who engage in it. There is no respect for the initial commitment so people walk into it blindly. What you have above concerning men is exactly true; as men feel they are also being used it further perpetuates the attitude of treating a woman with little concern or respect. Relations become warfare and both are dissatisfied though I believe men are less so; men tend to be more emotionally self-reliant than females and are better able to replace one with another without fanfare. The odds are stacked in favor of men. Women can look away from need in their early years but it seems only a few can sustain ultimate personal satisfaction without a partner or child as they become older (and without neurosis setting in). Have you read Erica Jong's Sappho's Leap? Quite an interesting book really though the ending is quite trite. A fictional account of Sappho's life and her ideological passage from youth into her later years. It examines the personal changes a woman face and what they have to reconcile within themselves through every right of passage.

    Quote:The romantic ideal is when the sexual act itself is only a peak, a single point of contact, in a much deeper and profound intimacy.

    Exactly. Simply and perfectly said. But how rare it is Wanderer! One can spend the rest of their life hoping, searching and expecting only to discover disappointment. There are few who require the above. Even if they feel an indescribable need that has gone unfulfilled they don't know the personal work necessary to make themselves worthy of it. And then if they do make themselves worthy they will find a dirth of available partners who fill the criteria necessary to make it possible.

    Quote:So if you attract morons and you choose morons, then you are a moron. If you attract shallow people and you choose to associate with them, then you are one of them.

    Yes but look how sly everyone has become! I mean one would literally have to wait a year and a day simply observing another individual to discover all there is in them. We all deliver ourselves with our best mask and are afraid to show our deficiencies. This is how people become emotionally stuck with someone! It was like this with someone i had my eye on recently, he had many amazing and endearing qualities but i was waiting to see how healthy he is and how healthy he was willing to become. He disappointed me and in his explanation of himself I realized he is stressed because he lacks confidence in his own ability to remain commmitted to his own health (emotional/physical and emotional). My question is this: Why fear admitting this in the beginning? Why risk hurting those we care for and who care for us out of fear of unmasking our truer self. It amazes me because they would find a deeper acceptance unmasked with their wounds and deficiencies than simply trying to hide and them later being seen as a stupid fuck-up!

    Quote: A physical need being placated and the other being nothing but a product for consumption...

    Yes but a bait and switch product! Its not even just use and discard but use under false pretense. This is far worse. When people don't know themselves they are forced into insincerity.

    Quote

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    nly a discerning eye can connect with another on any deeper level consciously and so the maintenance of that connection becomes easier, whereas when the connection is subconscious and instinctual it quickly wanes and vanishes giving rise to the need to find another and then another and then another….

    Right because they are strangers to their own psychological/emotional mechanisms. The inability to see oneself clearly is the crux of the matter; its the defining factor that makes all human interaction troublesome, and by the time they figure it out they have left nothing but destruction behind them. Pity.

    Quote:The balance of maintaining pleasure in living by not succumbing to extreme asceticism and maintaining self-control and dignity by not succumbing to extreme hedonism, is one I am personally aware of. I’m in the midst of trying to find that balanced middle ground, of Dionysian/Apollonian harmony within me. I’ve always been a control junky and so my Apollonian side dominates my psyche, but in recent years and after the death of my father last year, I’ve been trying to regain my Dionysian side and allow myself the abandonment of letting go and dancing with the rhythms of the cosmos. I’m close.

    I think I am the opposite. What fear arises in abandonment? Balance is important and something I am working towards.

    Quote:Unless it is corrupted by the system, as Plato predicted his ideal philosopher Kings would be.

    And what made him suspect this? Philosophers are usually exist outside of that which can cause corruption.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2004

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