Modernization cannot continue

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by darksidZz, Jun 13, 2011.

  1. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Spidey you been watching to much Glen Beck . Civil unrest will continue though . The ponzi scheme of the last 5000 years is almost up! It is accelerating. The players are positioning . The new day is on the horizon . It is a great time to be alive to witness the events unfolding . A decentralize a yeah that is what I been saying . Urbanization is bogus . Can't eat concrete. I mean the roof top farms are all fine and dandy , but to feed the masses . I don't know about that . I want to see what kind of Wheat production can be achieved in vertical farming . I bet it will be nothing like the Huttirites and there ability to grow wheat in rocks on the open plains of eastern Montana
     
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  3. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    Your position confounds me. I could understand if someone was saying fusion(which really would save us)/nano tech/quantum computing or some other far off technology was going to save us.

    But what I am talking about is stuff that we already have. Solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, thorium, nuclear, bio fuel, and more effectient electronics are all here now and ready to go. If it was only one or two we would be more likely to fail but these give us options for nearly every occasion.

    The only thing missing is thier adoption by the main stream of society and that will come naturally with $7 gas (maybe sooner, maybe later its just a guess). This not future tech or sci fi this is ready now. I think you are perpetually stuck in the anger stage my friend.
     
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Vertical farming is somewhat absurd, with all the fine farmland around that have turned into suburban developments, we can plow that up. Glen Beck is about my least favorite person in the world. You should read this.
     
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  7. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    We will probably do all those things and more, but none of them combined can account for the same scale of energy that we get from oil, and the population is ever increasing. So we actually need more and more energy, while the non-fossil supply is pitiful with the hope of becoming barely adequate in 20 to 50 years, and that is if there are no troubling political consequences from the collapse of the American way of life.
     
  8. superstring01 Moderator

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    Germany during WWII turned coal into oil. People aren't going to go back to plowing fields with oxen, that's beyond ridiculous. The technology exists to convert it, and it's far less expensive than "going back in time" and shutting down technology.

    ~String
     
  9. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Your probably right . We will do anything to keep up our gluttonous life styles . Like rip the lungs out of the world so wees can have our M. T. V.
    What will happen if gas hits 7.00 a gal . Some say alternative limited applications will fill the void and look more lucrative at that point . I don't know about that ? How bout economic collapse like Greece is facing . Are we placing bets on projected loan defaults yet ? I bet the market will be responding if Countries state defaulting on loans
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Gas is at $8.00 a gallon in some countries. World hasn't ended.
     
  11. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    You don't understand localized economies. The price of gas in other countries has nothing to do with the price of gas in other countries . Economies are subject to inflation increments the public can adjust to . Bad shit happens when it don't. You think run away inflation had anything to do with Germany becoming ripe for what followed . If a bushel of beans cost 5 dollars one day and you were dependent on those beans for substance and they went to 12 dollars you would be priced out of buying beans , This equals economic collapse no matter how you dice it . The American can not pay 8 dollars a gal. and keep up production . That means eventual default on loans like Greece is facing . So your hole thing of punish America because our gas is cheaper is not valid . If you want cheap gas move to Venezuela. 1.65 last I heard . You want to see the world economic system come to a screeching halt. Gas hits 7 or 8 dollars a gal in the U.S. you will . The ripple effect will be massive world wide . You can start believing Spidey Man posts for sure by then and the poor people coupled up in High rises in the inner cities will get the brunt of punishment , cause us country folk are ingenious at living with out the means of modern society . We have chickens and grow our own feed . Grasses grow good around here . Wheat included . Oh yeah the higher gas is the more you food will cost so I guess it all boils down to a trade off . Higher gas = higher food cost . It don't matter cause ranchers and farmers just realized they got the world on a string . Did you see how much beef is going up these days . Shit all food prices . Let the games begin
     
  12. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    Energy efficiency improvement is certainly another area we could be doing far better at.

    I live 24 km from downtown Whitehorse. Between here and town, about 2/3 of that distance is lit by streetlights.

    To what point?

    Vehicles are required by law to have operational headlamps. There are several subdivision road exits, yet even these could be lit by just a few lamps at each, never mind the miles in between.

    Waste of energy AND light pollution which detracts from the northern lights and the starlit sky during the darker months.
     
  13. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    3,798
    I rather doubt that we will be forced to retreat that far unless nuclear war ever became a reality, at which time a pre-industrial lifestyle could actually be almost luxurious compared to other options.

    Access to clean drinking water and a healthy food supply are the concerns that I foresee, given that throughout the history of our species, equal access to the basic amenities of life seems never to have been the case, and that there has ever been persons in dire need.

    Even if our population stabilizes, our manner of habitat destruction and rehabilitation to suit our own purposes is impacting water supply and the food chain.

    There is no avoiding these effects, as all is integrated. The best one may do is practice harm reduction.
     
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    18,543
    Of course. But you asked "What will happen if gas hits 7.00 a gal." To learn the answer to that, you can look at what actually _did_ happen in places where gas hit $7.00 a gallon (and went even higher than that.) And it was not at all apocalyptic; people adapted.

    It's like asking "what will happen if gas hits $2.00 a gallon?" Not too much of a mystery; it's happened to us, even though people predicted doom and gloom once it rose over $1.00.

    On the other hand, if you could still get rice and it hasn't gone up much in price, then it's not nearly as bad. Or if you were a glutton, eating three times as much as you needed to, then having to eat fewer beans would actually be a good thing overall.

    Sure they can. They'd drive a lot less, buy smaller cars and trucks, move closer to where they worked, depend more on trains and boats, use alternate fuels and telecommute more. The economy would surely change; oil companies would make more money, SUV manufacturers less. Tesla would make more money, GM less. Union Pacific more, Fedex less.

    ?? No punishment for cheap gas or reward for expensive gas. It is what it is.

    They're actually the best situated to deal with it. Cities generally have sea and rail access, and those modes of transport will become more relied-upon to transport food and goods once fossil fuels for transportation becomes more of a problem. They can walk or take public transit to work, school and shopping.

    Now, those families living in suburbia - they're going to have problems. When you live four miles from everything, but population densities are too low to put in mass transit - you have to drive everywhere.

    So one of the effects of high gas prices will be the gradual shrinking of suburbia.

    Good! Fewer health problems. Beef was once a luxury food; we seemed to survive just fine.
     
  15. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    You are living in a dream world . When gas went up during the Carter administration and inflation was big a little thing called stagnation blighted all the communities. The welfare lines where long and civil unrest was abounding . A yeah we survived . That was a picnic compared to this new paradigm. Your a progressive that don't understand mathematics and reality . The Jews survived world war 2 so I guess all will be O.K. then . No worries ! Spidey start thinking pickers are Americans and no longer migrant farm workers from other boarders . See this person lives in the conditioning of smart growth planing . Decentralizing is not even in there vocabulary . Indoctrinations run Deep Spidey . There is not much luck in bringing this one forward .
    You know what over 500 of those city folk applied for a single job in rural wild life interface Missoula this Dec. I wonder why . Cause maybe they did not have a job in there personal urban core with mass transit. They had big qualifications with lots of degrees . To Bad my wife got the Job and they didn't . You better start listening to Spidey . I already know the financial collapse is coming anyway so it don't matter . Let gas get to 10 bucks . That will make all the progressives happy. God People are stupid . No wonder I dropped out of normal society
     
  16. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    SpideyGoat you know Roger Malar don't you . How long have you lived in Portland ? He was your planner before he got ran out of Portland and ended up in Mccall Idaho . Then he got ran out of Mccall and ended up in Missoula as our planner. I know a lot about him . I made it my business to know his past as I watched my Business crumble under the weight of anti development sentiment turning builders and developers into the Great Satan scape goat of our times. There was a book that came out in the middle of the mayhem . The name is slipping Me right now . It spun this web of deceit that claimed development cost more than nondevelopement . It claimed it put to much pressure on services compared to existing Neighborhoods and communities everywhere bought into the fuzzy Math. Progressive propaganda is what it was . Now communities have no more growing tax base and the projected growth is at historic lows . Oh Shit Oh dear and the progressives still can't figure out why tax collections are so low . They were expecting that money to be piling up from the rewards of non developing , It didn't work out that way . So whad they do . Started a new tax they don't call a Tax Maintenance Districts is what they call them . It gives City Councils the right to raise taxes on a need money bases . An open Check book almost directly linked to the citizens bank account . Oh what joy . So now they don't have the taxes and they are some what afraid to push Maintenance Districts to far with the failing economies so What is there plan in Missoula and the western part of Montana now . There mad cause Eastern Montana is booming and all the blue collar works have left to work over there. So now they want to tax the blue collar worker over there and give it to the western part of the state so college kids can get there education. They want the blue collar worker to pay the taxes so that the people in the western part of the state don't have to be blue collar workers . Can you see the hypocrisy in that Spidey . So this is the latest on the battles Front line . The Eastern Part of the state is becoming flush with cash for there schools like they never have before and are telling the Western part to take a flying Fuck cause they could give a shit about the struggle of the eastern part as they lived in poverty for the last 50 years while the west lived in elitist luxuries . Oh holy shit are the progressives mad as hell about it . They want the blue collars money bad . It is quite hilarious really. You know I am not all on board with corporate stripping of land and the environmental impact of corporate America stripping the land , but I still find it funny as hell . I get all the good info these days . My wife has the finger on the pulse and gets all the latest capitol hill gossip . She was contacted by head hunters from Seattle this last month . Everybody loves a winner .
     
  17. kira Valued Senior Member

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    Not all solar energy needs grid. Please look up for "stand alone (off-grid) solar PV system". It is getting more popular especially in the remote areas where other energy supply alternatives are not available. The challenge is in the battery needed to store the energy which are abundant in the summer but scarce in winter.

    Stand alone (off-grid) solar PV system
     
  18. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    You aren't going to be able to charge your electric car for commuting that way. I acknowledge that solar systems exist for basic household use, but this is no replacement for the vast amounts of energy we use in transportation.
     
  19. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    Dropped out? Sounds more likely that you were kicked out.
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Horse puckee! We spend all of our time communicating with each other, not chasing bison. I "go to work" every day and sit in a cubicle, but I spend 99% of my time on my computer, and when I do communicate with someone else in the company it's almost always by e-mail or phone.

    With affordable webcams we can catch each other's body language and facial expressions, and pass-the-mouse virtual meeting software puts us as close to a conference room as we'll ever need to be--while recording everything digitally so nobody can claim that they didn't go along with the consensus!

    As I said, talk to these young people who've spent their entire lives communicating virtually. The only time they feel the need for physical proximity is to dance, play sports, have sex, or commit mischief.
    But just as the Industrial Revolution reduced the input of human labor to the food production process by 97%, computer automation will reduce it even further, just as it's doing with other industrial processes.

    Two hundred years ago it took the labor of more than 99% of the human race to produce and distribute enough food to feed us all. Today it's only three percent. In two hundred years it will probably be a few hundredths of a percent.

    What happened to you kids? My generation had tremendous faith in the future, and the future has delivered, despite the dedicated efforts of entire large groups of people who would like to see us revert to the Stone Age.

    You seem to have no faith in the future at all, as you sit here talking to me from halfway around the planet, using a technology that almost no one of my generation thought would ever be practical. Even Robert Heinlein didn't think the world computer network would have visual images!

    Don't be demoralized by politics. Civilization has had many temporary reversals but it always bounces back stronger than ever.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2011
  21. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    You could say that . It is probably true . My community rejected Me, Fear not they have bigger plans for my life . They call e the Christ to my face . Can you believe that . I can't ! It amazes Me . They want me to be a musicain ! Can you believe that . They made it loud and clear for they want to change the world and they have this profound belief I could do something about it . So I give it hell the best I can . Yeah even Nancy Polosi told me to Hang it Up and go play guitar . Fuck I get the message . Iam doing the best I can
     
  22. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    It is the devaluation of the human race Fraggle. WE did it to them . You Me and the rest of the victem class generation of Jonesers . Maybe you are progressive Boomer ( Don't ju,mp my ass I know you are Libertarian ) Old Hippie rocker. ( Grateful Dead Yeah !!! ) All the nasty about over population and the Governments devaluation of human life about 3 years ago . See you don't think things like this have an effect . They do. It is like a signal . A plan , or better yet " A Business Plan "
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    18,543
    Yep. And yet unemployment was lower, we were in fewer wars and there was no credit crisis. Every age has its issues, and every market has its cycles.


    Uh . . . what?

    Sound a lot like my grandparents.

    Because a lot of people apply for jobs. We get hundreds for every position, even in good economic time.

    Yep. And the world was going to end in May 2011, too. That didn't happen either.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2011

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