Marching orders

Discussion in 'About the Members' started by chimpkin, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I know - I, and some others, don't believe everything you say either.

    For example, I don't believe that the "real you" is the one who hates you.
     
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  3. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    What's the real me?

    The me that hates me is the only me I can remember being; the me before I was 4...the gun guy didn't succeed...but the other pedo did.
    That me said it was my fault, both times I was breaking the rules.

    Is there a real me to find?

    I don't always believe this stuff happened.:shrug:
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
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  5. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    That is understandable.


    With more experience, you may find there are other you's.
     
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  7. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Do you mean that the situation was something like that: You were told, by your caretakers, not to go to that house, but you went anyway -?
     
  8. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    There appear to be several other versions of me in my head. They argue at times.

    Apartment, but, well, he asked me to. And I don't blame myself now, but I did then.
    I was told not to go behind the building, that where the other guy drew a gun on me. So I blamed myself.
    I blamed myself for all of the rest of it too.
    Intellectually I don't now, feelings are different.
     
  9. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    One of the most difficult things to do is to forgive yourself, but it is also one of the most necessary things to do. We all make mistakes. If we learn from the mistake and don't repeat the error, we have grown and profited from the experience.

    When we are children, it is the adults responsibility to protect us from harm. If they fail in that it is not our fault, though it is very natural to feel as though it is.

    Oh yeah - there is no time limit on working something through, you can take your entire lifetime to get there if that is what it takes.
     
  10. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Sure.


    I know this may sound horrible -
    Actually, I think you were right to blame yourself, though.

    If nowadays, you believed you had good reason not to do action X, but you did it anyway, and things would go bad, you would think it would be right to blame yourself, wouldn't you?
    It's a matter of taking responsibility.

    Children are not beyond taking responsibility, no matter what the popular idea is.
    Children can and want to take responsibility.
    They might not be able to do so in a wise manner, and so they might try to take on too much or too little responsibility, but they are not robots either.
    They have an awareness that they themselves play a part in what happens to them. It is adults who sometimes try to convince them that they do not.

    To be clear, I am not talking about blaming the victim or exonerating the perpetrator.
    Just that as children, even though we were children, we did play a part in what happned to us. And it is wrong to deny that.

    I think that as long as we believe that as children, we are free to do just anything and no bad consequences should befall us, we are being immature. Children are no more exempt from the consequences of their actions than adults are - namely, not at all. It's just that with children, the consequences may be worse as they do not have the experience, resources and wisdom that adults may potentially have.
     
  11. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    It think it helps to view those past situations as mistakes, born out of a poor knowledge fund, born out of limited resources - as opposed to seeing them as "things we did and that happened to us because we are inherently evil".
     
  12. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    For being sexually assaulted?
    At 4?
    You're saying because I was young and gullible I am somehow responsible? Are raped women responsible for wearing revealing clothing too?

    There's a difference between saying an act is foolish and saying someone's responsible for their own violation. Foolish I'd agree with. A 4-year old does lots of foolish things.

    I was told not to go into stranger's apartments. I was never told why I should not go.This wasn't strictly a stranger-my parents knew him...so the line was blurred.

    .

    I broke the rules. But what happened wasn't a sane consequence of that.

    Yes, but I'm 38 years old now. Not 4.
    Children need protection for a reason.
    Holding a child not old enough for kindergarten to the same standards as an adult makes no sense.

    Yes, I was a child. That's it, that's the part I played. The illogical feelings of foulness are illogical.

    Again, this sounds like you're blaming me for being...a normal four-year-old. Who trusted a friend of her parents'. A not so normal six year old...a really insane seven-and-eight year old.
    My uncle attacked me opportunistically; there was nothing I honestly could have done to stop him, he had to choke me half-unconscious to keep me quiet enough not to scream for help.
    My dad I still struggle with. But I was left alone with him at night. I tried not to be, begged, pleaded, shrieked.
    At six, I didn't know the words for what he was doing.

    I don't buy the "our actions have consequences" here for the same reason statutory rape laws exist.
    An adult is never justified, EVER, in being sexual with a child.
    Even if the child does something that makes them vulnerable.

    Now if I fell out of a tree and broke an arm as a child, that's the consequences of my actions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  13. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    My wife and I were just discussing this yesterday, as our son was late getting up and then late getting out the door to go on our long Sunday hike with us. He caught up to us later out in the back country.

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    However, he is only 19 years old. At 60, I can see lots of mistakes that younger folks make, but then they have not had the time to have the experiences and education that I have had. I spent 25 years in university, my son is not 25 years old yet so there is no way he could have the education I do. It is as simple as that.

    Unfortunately, the wisdom that comes with age often jumps to a conclusion that is a poor fit for the actual circumstances. "Patience is a virtue"

    Placing blame or finding fault is not profitable for either party. Much better to say "whoops, I made a mistake, I won't do that again" than "you really blew it, you are stupid, I would not have done that" There is no profit in attempting to elevate yourself over others at their expense. It is just an ineffective way to feel better about yourself by making someone else feel worse about themselves.
     
  14. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I know this might come across as unspeakable, but I do think that it is liberating to admit one has played a part in what has happened to one.

    This does not mean that one has intended the consequences that had come about.

    If one steps into a mud pool, one might not intend to get dirty, one might not want to get dirty, but one will get dirty.
    One might not have seen the mud pool to begin with. One might have never seen a mud pool before and have no idea what it is. Regardless, one will get dirty if one steps into it.

    We generally believe that we play a part in everything that happens to us anyway; it is just in some situations that we do not.


    And yes, I do think that one ultimately needs to take responsibility for being born and for being alive.
    I am not alone with that idea. Caroline Myss, for example, proposes this as well.


    Rules are there to protect.
    Once one breaks them, unpredictable consequences can follow.

    Numerous things could have followed from you going to that appartment. You simply might have watched tv with a stranger; you might get a piece of cake; you might have gotten killed; ....
    But you did go there, you weren't forced - that was on your own will, hence you naturally feel responsible.

    I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling responsible like that. It is only necessary to establish what exactly you are responsible for, and what you are not responsible for.

    I don't think a child is responsible for being abused.
    But I do think that even a child is responsible for walking to a stranger's - or anyone's - apartment.


    I'm not blaming you and I am not saying you deserved what happened.

    I do think that part of the reason why people don't heal is because they keep placing the whole blame on the perpetrator, and denying that they played some part in what happened. While all along, a part of them wants to acknowledge this responsibility anyway.
    People don't feel well, don't feel empowered if they can't or don't take responsibility.

    My point is that a child has as much of sense of will, of empowerment, as an adult; and that it is counterproductive to deny that.


    We have some control over our actions, but very little over their consequences.


    I am in no way suggesting that he or she is.


    You could fall out of a tree and break your back; or break nothing; or you could be caught by someone.
     
  15. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Along the lines that Signal is posting, I read a study a number of years ago (might be able to find it) but the essence of the study was that women who accepted behavioral responsibility for their rape recovered faster and more completely than those who did not.

    IIRC, the researchers suggested, based on the interviews, that even though the logic was often obtuse, by taking some behavioral responsibility for what happened to them the women were able to get to where they felt they could do things to avoid being a victim again, in essence again in control of their lives and thus their lives again became forward looking and they tended to not dwell in the past.

    I think that this approach of "taking responsibility", seems to just be a mental construct (a well crafted rationalization), a way of dealing with what happened to you so you can move on, and in no way is saying you deserved what happened to you or justifies what the perpertrator did to you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  16. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Trust Me . It was not your fault !!! You can take ownership as your experience , but you did no wrong . It may help you ( Like Aurthur said to deal with it , based on study ) but rest assured it is the worlds problem for not treating children with the decency of being human beings . Should the children bend to the whims of a fucked up world ? Most children have to. Does it make it right . Fuck no it don't . Do I dare bring in addiction ( not drugs ) The addiction of the world to not take responsibility. It is always about justifying the addiction . What is Me talking about ? when you start to figure that out your compassion for people will change I guarantee you and then there may be hope in the world
     
  17. Varda The Bug Lady Valued Senior Member

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    Hey have you seen the 3rd zeitgeist movie? The first half of the movie is all about how the way children are treated in developmental age affects what they become as adults.
    That guy that does that awesome stress research with baboons is on it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
     
  18. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    15,058
    On a further point, I think that in order to heal from childhood trauma, it is important to review one's ideas about what it means to be a child, what childhood is.

    I think that in the modern West, we have an idea of children and childhood that is very harmful, that infantilizes and disempowers people when they are children and then later when they are adults reflecting back on their childhood.
    I think that our modern ideas of children and childhood make it very difficult for us to recover from early trauma and to develop resilience.



    From Bruno Bettelheim's The uses of enchantment: The meaning and importance of fairy tales (published in 1976):

     
  19. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    There are, for example, several articles on this with references in the Journal of Traumatic Stress - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10.1002/(ISSN)1573-6598/ (search by keyword "rape").


    I don't think this taking responsibility is merely a rationalization, but a realistic admission of how things actually happened and the part that one played in it.
    The way I see it, a big problem that emerges with exclusively blaming the perpetrator is that this way, the victim can easily be left with the impression that the crime didn't actually happen!
     
  20. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    self perceived trauma vs actual trauma?

    doing what works vs doing whats best?(perfect?)
    my daughter has led a fairly traumatic free life..(goth stage excepted)(she is currently arguing she wasn't a 'true' Goth, she didn't get the tattoo's and piercings..(funny..she has a tongue pierce,and a tattoo behind her ear.:shrug:.)) (uh oh..she is coming..gotta go..)
     
  21. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Hmmm?

    I see it more of those that think there was nothing they could have done are left with the ongoing fear that it could happen again, at any time, and thus they tend to dwell on the event because they feel helpless to prevent a recurrence.

    Those that, however small a role they played, accept that they were partly to blame (only in the sense of putting themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time) feel they are in control of their lives and can reduce the risk of a future occurrence.
     
  22. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Sure.

    My point was that some victims of crime end up doubting whether the crime really happened or not, it all seems surreal to them. And this isn't an example of denial or repression, but something that can happen when they conceptualize the situation in such a manner as to take themselves out of it - "If I am not in some way responsible for what happened to me, then I might have as well not been there to begin with, and nothing happened." Which is obviously in discord with their memory of what happened.
     
  23. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Did you read the passage I quoted from Bettelheim?
     

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