Life According to Amish/Mennonites

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Mark UX, Sep 4, 2015.

  1. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    It's hardly self-sustaining if they would die out in a decade or so without medical technology from the 21st century.

    And did I mention they are terrorists?
     
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  3. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    the evidence for this?
    for one thing, you forget that they've lived almost unchanged since the 1800's ...
    plus, to piggyback on that, you are confusing the Amish.
    Not all Mennonite (Anabaptist) are Amish, the religion is very diverse and contain everything from a secretive people who refuse most technology to the tech savvy progressive most people wouldn't be able to tell from any other modern person

    all Amish are Mennonite (Anabaptist), but not all Mennonite (Anabaptist) are Amish

    how do you justify this comment?
    or are you just trying to piss people off & baiting for an argument?
     
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  5. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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  7. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/13/AR2005101301733.html

    "The first outbreak of polio in the United States in 26 years occurred earlier this fall in an Amish community in central Minnesota, state and federal health officials reported yesterday. Four children have been infected with the virus, although none has become paralyzed. The Amish typically decline to vaccinate their children. The last large outbreak of polio occurred in numerous Amish communities in several states in 1979. The outbreak poses little threat to children outside the Amish community. About 98 percent of Minnesota's children are vaccinated against polio, said Harry Hull, the state epidemiologist."

    They don't vaccinate. But our herd immunity protects them.

    OK, technically, the polio vaccine is 20th century technology, but still.
     
  8. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    ok. at least now i can see where you are coming from.
    i would prefer to see court data or evidence that is not a magazine ... but i would like to use this article as an example of something as well
    from the link
    might i just say that this really does demonstrate the diversity that i have previously stated exists in the Anabaptist religion?
    Also note, when religion is involved, then you will have fanatics. it doesn't matter how peaceful the religion is (take xtianity and the holy wars, witch burning and Inquisition as perfect examples, or turn to ISIS)
    This is also not, i repeat, not, evidence that all Amish are terrorists. it is simply a demonstration that religions have fanatics.


    ok, i can see what you are saying, but it still doesn't actually say that they would die out. after all, Amish typically didn't get "scratched" (for smallpox) or inoculated in the past, either. Considering this, and the existence of the cowpox vaccine in history, then, per your own argument, they should already be dead, right?

    I don't personally agree with any religion on this particular point (vaccination and herd immunity), just fyi
     
  9. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    I agree, but I would add they are particularly prone to fanaticism, since even the moderate ones are fairly extreme in their rejection of mainstream society. And pointing out that all religions have fanatics isn't really an excuse. Religion is the problem, and moderates provide cover and entry point for fundamentalism, which in the end is just taking what they read seriously.

    If they weren't parasites on mainstream society, yes, I think most of them would be dead and their culture destroyed.
     
  10. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    709
    isn't this a little like saying all xtians are prone to fanaticism because they tend to think marriage should be between a man and a woman?
    not trying to excuse it... just making a point... but, i do agree with one thing:
    i am (personally) anti-religion.
    ok, this is your opinion... and whereas i don't like religion at all, i can't justify considering the Amish "parasitic".

    the Amish were fairly secluded and (still today) have limited dealings with "Englishers", which is their typical term for any non-Amish around them. Even people (like myself) who live with and have family in Mennonite congregations and live among the Amish, are considered outsiders and typically shunned unless specifically needed. there are some sects (even here) that are even more secluded.

    now, you can say that some have interacted with modern society, but you can't justify that all interact.

    Given the limited interaction, you can see that there would be a negative overall effect on Amish throughout the ages, especially where disease (and very especially communicable disease) is concerned.
     
  11. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, that's a good example.

    What else do you call their dependence on values (science-based medicine) that they claim to reject? I respect their basic right to live apart from the rest of society, but one some level it's a fantasy.
     
  12. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    yeah, i don't doubt or contest it is a fantasy in many ways... but there are a lot of those types out there.
    hollywood idiots who reject inoculations because of their conspiracy ideation and failure to accept that Wakefield was a crook, for example.

    there are also survivalists (of various types) and naturalists (of different types) who partake of reduced technological lifestyles... for a long time people considered someone like me in this group, even though i am not... well, not really.
     
  13. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Has anybody mentioned the Hutterites? They come from a religious and cultural background similar to the Mennonites. They dress like Amish and live communally but they use technology like Buck Rogers.
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Modern life styles end in collapse - it is not necessary. Watch this video:


    The follow on video shows why making major change in our life style, is not a choice, but necessity despite current oil surplus vs. demand.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    34,668
    Mod Hat ― Seriously?

    I admit, this whole thing with people posting large amounts of video doesn't make sense.

    Or maybe it does: Here, watch an hour and a half of video for me because I don't want to write anything.

    It actually seems kind of rude.
     
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  16. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Actually there is a brief summary text for each of the videos I posted intended to help people decide if they wanted to open either. Offering information, that few know is not "rude" especially when a feeling by many that current life styles can not be sustained is so common.

    First video shows that recovery of totally barren land into lush diverse plant growth, even with ground water feed natural steams, where there were once only deep dry erosion gullies is not only possible, but has been achieved on several continents.

    Second video shows how more productive (in food et.al.) managed diverse forest can be, and how much more CO2 they store than the industrial farming of one crop fields are (and fact little or no oil based fertilizer or pesticides are required - a huge net CO2 reduction). Diverse forest are the natural condition of much of the land - man typically fights nature, but need not.

    I did not know these "ways out of gloom" existed and found both videos quite interesting. As I normally do, I started jumping thru videos in samples of 30 seconds or so duration; but soon switch to at least half time viewing, as videos were interesting and informative - telling things I did not know or initially believed were not even possible.

    Not rude to offer to others, their choice, the opportunity to experience the same. In contrast I think "rude" applies to posters who post pages of text and expects us to read them, especially when there is mainly opinions and little factual information in the post.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
  17. Mark UX Registered Member

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    If a post is completely unrelated (happens, here... often...) to the topic of a thread, and people dedicates 5-10-15 post to completely unrelated matters, then yes, I consider it distracting, and perhaps, rude. On the other side... if someone post anything (even a 3hours video) which is completely related to the thread, then I consider it constructive and in a way, useful for the development of the thread's topic. So Billy T post was completely In context, not out of context.
     
  18. Mark UX Registered Member

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    I finally saw this video: this was open-eyes for me. There are two powerful messages in the video: Here: 38:41 - 39:41, and here: 40:43 - 41:38. Thankfully, there are still smart people with enough clarity of mind to see the problem, whilst the majority will simply ignore it.

    Nature has the ability to recover by itself IF human hostile activity among nature stops: literally, Nature does not need humans, at all. On the contrary, humans cannot survive without resources and “services” provided by Nature.

    We are already seeing what happens when masses of humans in Syria desperately try to migrate to new land, in order to escape of the mortal threats in their home land (in this case, war). Same applies to any thread, happening in any land; since it is in our human instinct, the desire to survive. Does not matter your social position, your financial status nor the geographically location you are currently living: our current lifestyle is heading mankind to massive migrations in the future, where food and clean water will be much more important than today. All this, is perfectly avoidable with population control and land treatment like the example in above video, even if it takes years to realise.
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Believe it or not, humanity survived for millions of years without 21st century medical technology! Amazing but true.
    So are Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, atheists etc etc. Fortunately not many of any of those groups are terrorists.
     
  20. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    51,799
    Wow, what an amazing and irrelevant point!
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    You claimed that "they would die out in a decade or so without medical technology from the 21st century." I proved you wrong. Hardly irrelevant.
     
  22. X-Man2 We're under no illusions. Registered Senior Member

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    The Amish are a strange bunch.They dont follow the teachings all the way nor completely step into our world. They pay a driver to tote them around in effect using the automobile anyway.They work for the non religious or at least mostly non religious. They eat fast food and shop in our stores.

    The Amish around here drink beer daily including the kids down to around 10 years old.Many smoke also at home.

    Their numbers are falling although I dont know the facts as to why.

    Oh well they arnt the only cult weirdos.

    Tim.
     
  23. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    709
    they don't have a rule against automobiles; they have a rule against owning or having a "tie to the world"
    this may be dependent upon your area... and the congregation of the area.
    this goes for your alcohol comment as well. Germans (and the Germanic people in Europe etc) typically don't see beer as a problem, and are raised drinking it regularly. The Anabaptist's who came to the US were almost exclusively Germanic in origin, and the faction that are Amish are heavily influenced by Germanic culture, thinking and language
     
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