Jewish fundamentalists at it again. Abusing their women

S.A.M. · Dec 27, 2006

otheadp said: ↑

* fact: women don't have legal recourse against domestic violence
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False

Women can divorce husbands who are abusive. Divorce is very easy in Muslims, all a woman has to do is call a qadi and inform him.

* fact: it's illegal in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, other Muslim countries for a woman to leave her tent/house without a male escort who is either your husband or brother or father
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False, they do it all the time. I did too.

* opinion: if a husband beat up his wife, he is unlikely to escort her to the hospital or to a non-existant womans' shelter
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False, he will have to look after the children, his wifes mother/family or his mother/family will visit on a regular basis. Plus Arab women are usually strong willed and tend to rule the roost at home.

* fact: not all battery requires hospitalization
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No it does not. But women talk. A lot.

EDIT:

* fact: it's far worse for women in the Muslim world (re: safety from physical violence)
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All hypothetical ranting, with no substance.

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S.A.M. · Dec 27, 2006

otheadp said: ↑

somebody forgot to inform the Saudi royal family what the Qur'an dictates...
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Nobody forgot; after taking over all the tribes, the Saud family established these laws to keep the different tribes under control.

man this is as asinine a reply as when people blame some Muslims for terrorism, some guy says "it can't be Muslims since Islam forbids this and that".
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Only if you say Islam says this and that.

well ok, then who the fuck is Osama?
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And this is related to women and Islam and abuse because...?

you posted some woman's opinion. it's not really a rebuttle to my facts/opinion post. can you reply to it line by line? i'd like to see you denying any of it
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Of course a 71 year old Arab woman who is an educator knows far far less about the status of Arab women than you do.
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S.A.M. · Dec 27, 2006

More rantings from deluded Arab women:
http://www.wworld.org/crisis/crisis.asp?ID=358

Arab women are generally portrayed as victimized, subservient. They sit next to silent, wide-eyed children in Iraqi hospitals, they stumble among the ruins of their homes in Jenin. Many in the west seem to think they need to be dragged out from under their veils and scolded into standing up for themselves. But as we all try to block, to temper, to survive the coming horror, it is crucial for sympathizers in the west to understand the truth. The women's movement started in Egypt, Palestine and Syria in the 1880s. By the 1960s women in many Arab countries had the vote, equal pay for equal work and maternity and childcare legislation that is still a dream in the west. Massive women's organizations worked to improve women's education and health care. Women (and men) campaigned for reforms in the personal laws and notched up several successes. But now all this is on hold.

I'm asked what Arab women are doing in these critical times. They are doing what they have to do: toughing it out, spreading themselves thin, doing their work, making ends meet, trying to protect their children and support their men, turning to their friends, their sisters and their mothers for solidarity and laughs. There was a quieter, more equable time when women's political action was born of choice, of a desire to change the world. Now, simply trying to hold on to our world is a political action.

F is an Egyptian architect. She has always been active in women's organizations. She did voluntary literacy work with poor urban women and her book on mothers and children was published by the UNDP. Her husband is one of the 14 anti-war activists detained recently in Cairo. When she took her two daughters, both engineering students, to visit him in Tora jail, they were astounded at the hundreds of women and children waiting to visit political detainees. Children were waiting to visit grandfathers in their 70s. F's husband (now released) is from the left but most long-term detainees are Islamists. The majority are unofficially detained. They have never been to court and there is no document that gives them prisoner status. They are not allowed to give power of attorney to anyone. Without documents, wives cannot draw their husbands' salaries, cannot travel, cannot marry off a daughter or even bury a child. Because of the conditions in the jail, the detainees' families have to provide them with food, clothes, books, cigarettes. The distance from the center of Cairo to Tora jail is 20 miles. Because the detainees have no official status there is no agreed system for visits. The women show up and hope that they and their provisions will be allowed in. If they are not they have to come back next day. F and her colleagues now find themselves campaigning at least for the proper application of the hated emergency laws under which Egyptians have labored since 1981.

The emergency laws proscribe demonstrations or unauthorized public gatherings. Six of the marches that have taken place in Cairo over the last two weeks have been women's marches called by women's NGOs. Unlike marches involving men they managed to reach both the American and Israeli embassies. Men who demonstrate get shot before they come anywhere near these, but the authorities are still wary of brutalizing women in public. It seems, though, that their patience may be wearing thin; a recent demo saw 150 women cornered by some 2,000 riot police. Last Saturday's demonstration in front of the Arab League headquarters linked Iraq and Palestine, for while the world's attention is on Iraq, Ariel Sharon's army shoots at ambulances and bulldozes houses down on top of pregnant women. Since November 2000, 51 Palestinian women have had to give birth at check points; 29 of their 51 babies died.

And yet Palestinian women continue to have babies. Is that a political choice? At the center of most women's lives are the children. Soha, a nursing student, breaks down and cries in her home in Aida Camp when a rocket whizzes through her kitchen window at supper-time and out through the facing wall into the mercifully empty bedroom. Her mother tells her to buck up and not scare the children. It is sobering to note that the first Palestinian woman to make the political decision to become a human bomb was a nurse, caring daily for children injured or maimed by Israeli bullets. In between these two extremes, the giving and the giving up of life, hundreds of thousands of women go about their business as best they can.

Karma Abu Sharif, though 60 years younger than our Baghdadi friend, does not walk the streets of Ramallah. She sits at home and compiles the Hearpalestine newsletter and website, recording what she can of the daily demolitions, expropriations, arrests and killings. Keeping the children alive. Keeping culture alive. Preserving history and telling the story - these seem to be at the heart of our women's concerns right now.

The UN's Peter Hansen, writing in this paper last week of the terrible hunger in Gaza, says that "the Palestinian extended family and community network have saved the territories from ... absolute collapse". Women are the backbone of these families and networks and they are performing the same function in Iraq. Families who have, share with those who have not, through the agency of the churches and the mosques.

Last night IK told me that her mother, in Baghdad, has sold the Virgin's gold. An icon of the Virgin that has been in the family for more than 300 years. A neighbor in trouble - Christian, Jew or Muslim - would come and whisper a prayer, perhaps make a pledge. When the afflicted was healed, the traveller berthed, the child conceived, the neighbor would fulfil the pledge. Over the decades the Virgin was adorned with the most delicate filaments of gold. To her children's appalled protests that the gold was not hers to sell, their mother replied that the Virgin had no need of gold when there were people in the city who were starving. But what comes next? Where do you go after you've sold the Virgin's gold?
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Bells · Dec 27, 2006

IceAgeCivilizations said: ↑

Bells, how do you feel about beauty pageants?
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I personally find them boring and stupid. Why do you ask?

otheadp said:

you have yet to show that this awful behaviour is part of western culture (i.e. that it's accepted by all) and law (that husbands that kick their wife for insulting them do not go to jail if charges are brought forward)
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So its prevalence around the world and even in the West does not give you an indication that it is ingrained somehow? Why?

Did you even know, that until the last few years, some states in the US did not consider it illegal for men to rape their wives? It was only after they bowed to public and international pressure that they changed their laws, but even then, made sure to make a distinction between what was marital rape and stranger rape. You don't think that rape laws for example and several states in the US having such a distinction between marital rape and stranger rape shows how ingrained domestic violence is in the US?

As to the law.. It fails to protect women in domestic violent situations on many occasions. The offender is not always jailed and charges are not always brought against them for a variety of reasons.

A New York commission on domestic violence found that 57 percent of investigated homicides could have been avoided if police had provided greater protection to the victims. (New York State Commission on Domestic Violence Fatalities, October 1997)
Link
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And leaving will not always provide protection.

Another tragic statistic is that separated or divorced women (perhaps thinking they had escaped their tormenter) are 14 times more likely than married women to be a victim of ex-spousal violence. Although they constitute ten percent of all women, they report 75 percent of spousal abuse. It is further disturbing to note that in a large study conducted in Chicago, New South Wales, Australia and Canada, more wives were slain by their husbands when separated than when living together. Wives are at the highest risk in the first two months after leaving their husbands. The Australia data showed that 47 percent of wives who left were killed in the first two months and 91 percent within a year of leaving their husbands. These figures speak louder than any smooth-sounding words what is the real status of women today in America.
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As you said yourself, "if charges are brought forward", and on many occasions they are not. And even when they do, the guy can walk or face a pathetically short sentence. Men who rape their wives in some states in the US get a lesser sentence then if a woman was raped by a stranger. And in some States in the US alone, reporting requirement are so strict and sometimes shorter for spousal rape (for example) than it is for stranger rape. Here are some distinctions that exist that are quite disgusting if you really think about it.

in West Virginia, spousal sexual assault is defined as unconsented sexual penetration or sexual intrusion of the perpetrator's spouse. In addition, the perpetrator must use forcible compulsion or a deadly weapon or inflict serious bodily injury upon anyone. (5) This offense is a felony, punishable by imprisonment for two to ten years. The same acts against a person who is not married to the perpetrator result in a sentence of ten to thirty-five years.

An example of a similar statute comes from California. (6) The offenses of rape and spousal rape mostly parallel each other, but with some differences (7). For instance, a person who commits non-spousal rape by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury may not be sentenced to probation or suspended sentence. (8) However, this prohibition does not apply to those who use the same means to commit spousal rape.

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While all states recognize spousal rape as a crime, still, there are ways in which spousal rape is treated differently than non-spousal rape. One difference in some states is a reporting period which is shorter for spousal rape than for other crimes. In Illinois, "prosecution of a spouse of a victim under this subsection ...is barred unless the victim reported such offense to a law enforcement agency or the State's Attorney's office within 30 days after the offense was committed, except when the court finds good cause for the delay."

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Another way that some states treat rape of a spouse is treated differently than non-spousal rape is the requirement that force or threat of force must be used by the spouse. For instance, in Tennessee, a person only commits rape or sexual battery of a spouse when the person is armed with a weapon or credible decoy, causes serious bodily injury to the victim, or when the spouses live separate apart and one of them has filed for a divorce or separation. (12) Similarly, in Nevada, marriage is a defense to sexual assault of a spouse except where "the assault was committed by force or by the threat of force." (13) In contrast, many non-spousal sexual assault laws refer to lack of consent, rather than the use of force.
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Yes. I can understand why you'd think it was so hard to believe.

Domestic violence is ingrained in all societies. It was permitted in the past and now while we have laws against it, socially and in the minds of many people, it is still seen as not being something that bad. I have met many many women who were abused by their intimate partner and I have seen with my own eyes how some of them would be pressured by their own families to simply put up and shut up.

i find this one extremely hard to believe. this means that if you pick ANY apartment building in America, and in full half of the apartments there, the guy hit his wife at least once in the past year.

furthermore, assuming that these stats are correct, how much worse do you think it is in these tribal areas?
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The stats are correct sadly. Domestic violence is that common. And I understand why you'd think it was so unbelievable, but the more you look into it, the worse it gets. Even the Government admits that the figures they have are only taken from those reported. I'd hate to imagine what the true figure actually is because of the number of women who never report it or seek help.

As to what it's like in tribal areas. It's worse.

what is your point anyway? to say "we are bad too"? ok. i agree. there are women who have it pretty bad. but however bad they have it, it's not 1/10th as bad as it is in the Muslim world.
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There was a reason why I said earlier in this thread that we in the West also live in a glass house and should not throw stones. Both sides of the equation (Muslim and Western if that's how you are going to break it down) have a bad record of domestic violence. You cannot absolve or excuse Western society by merely saying 'well they're worse than we are so that's still ok'.

This Link gives you a breakdown of violence against women in all sorts of situations in various countries and areas around the world. Yes some have it worse, but figures in Western countries is not something we should not be embarrassed about. If we are going to start claiming we are somehow better then them (eg Muslims), we need to clean up our own act first, otherwise we come off looking like moronic fools.

On many occasions we in the West have had our own records of human rights abuses and domestic violence abuses thrown back in our faces when we've attempted to draw a distinction of our moral superiority against Islamic countries. We are in no position to be drawing any moral lines or distinctions because it is still so prevalent in our own society.

otheadp · Dec 27, 2006

samcdkey said: ↑

False

Women can divorce husbands who are abusive. Divorce is very easy in Muslims, all a woman has to do is call a qadi and inform him.

False, they do it all the time. I did too.

False, he will have to look after the children, his wifes mother/family or his mother/family will visit on a regular basis. Plus Arab women are usually strong willed and tend to rule the roost at home.

No it does not. But women talk. A lot.

All hypothetical ranting, with no substance.
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to refute facts you tell fairytales and anecdotes. if anything i said is false it is only because the Mutaween did not do their job properly

an Iranian friend told me how she used to leave her house without the hijab too... but she did not dare to go far from her house, because if she was caught by the cops she'd have to be lashed for "violating Islamic law"

S.A.M. · Dec 27, 2006

otheadp said: ↑

to refute facts you tell fairytales and anecdotes. if anything i said is false it is only because the Mutaween did not do their job properly

an Iranian friend told me how she used to leave her house without the hijab too... but she did not dare to go far from her house, because if she was caught by the cops she'd have to be lashed for "violating Islamic law"
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Of course the mutawa are a problem. But they are not present to the same extent everywhere and not all mutawas are the same. My mudir in Taif was a mutawa and he never objected to me having my face uncovered. As for your Iranian friend, I have Iranian friends too and yes there are places where people are backward, but does that represent life in Iran in general?[/QUOTE]

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I don't think so

S.A.M. · Dec 27, 2006

More "suppressed women" from Iran

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Sepulchrave · Dec 27, 2006

samcdkey said: ↑

Of course the mutawa are a problem. But they are not present to the same extent everywhere and not all mutawas are the same. My mudir in Taif was a mutawa and he never objected to me having my face uncovered. As for your Iranian friend, I have Iranian friends too and yes there are places where people are backward, but does that represent life in Iran in general?
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How the fuck can you play football wearing a headscarf and that outfit? You'd overheat in a hurry. If they had a choice, they'd rip them off.

S.A.M. · Dec 27, 2006

Sepulchrave said: ↑

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How the fuck can you play football wearing a headscarf and that outfit? You'd overheat in a hurry. If they had a choice, they'd rip them off.
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That's hilarious

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Sepulchrave · Dec 27, 2006

samcdkey said: ↑

That's hilarious

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Those uniforms are a problem.

http://vam.anest.ufl.edu/coolpads/presentation-to-nfl.swf

otheadp · Dec 28, 2006

the fact that women in Iran are allowed to march in the army, or to play soccer (but only if fully covered) doesn't change the fact that if they step out of line like completely take off the hijab, they'll face corporal punishment from government. or capital punishment in other Muslim countries.

one thing does not contradict the other, does it, Sam?

S.A.M. · Dec 28, 2006

otheadp said: ↑

the fact that women in Iran are allowed to march in the army, or to play soccer (but only if fully covered) doesn't change the fact that if they step out of line like completely take off the hijab, they'll face corporal punishment from government. or capital punishment in other Muslim countries.

one thing does not contradict the other, does it, Sam?
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So women are allowed to have an education, allowed to work, allowed to follow male-dominated career choices and forced to wear hijab?

Amazing dichotomy in thinking there. Do you really know any Iranian women?
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Would you say women are forced to wear clothing in Western countries when they are allowed to work? I mean, a woman can leave her shirt at home one day, since its a free country, right?

otheadp · Dec 28, 2006

there you go ducking my argument again
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are you diverting the debate on purpose?

does "women in Iran can play soccer" disprove that "women in Iran will get lashed if they are caught without a hijab by a cop"?

IceAgeCivilizations · Dec 28, 2006

Ah yes, Iran, the place where all the ladies want to live.

S.A.M. · Dec 28, 2006

otheadp said: ↑

there you go ducking my argument again
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are you diverting the debate on purpose?

does "women in Iran can play soccer" disprove that "women in Iran will get lashed if they are caught without a hijab by a cop"?
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You do realise that for an Iranian women who wears a hijab, telling her to take it off is equivalent to telling a Western woman to take off her shirt?
That a Western woman who takes off her shirt in public will also be arrested by a cop? That if she resists she will be tasered?

Can you understand this concept?

IceAgeCivilizations · Dec 28, 2006

Are the lady's parents allowed to see the lady's face, how 'bout uncles, aunts, grandparents, cousins, etc., where do they draw the line?

otheadp · Dec 28, 2006

and another thing:

samcdkey said: ↑

Of course the mutawa are a problem. But they are not present to the same extent everywhere and not all mutawas are the same. [if this mutawa was caught by his supervisor he'd have both his heads cut off (the small one and the big one). also, his kind seems to be the exception to the rule -- or should i say law] My mudir in Taif [if a "mudir" is your "guardian", i find the concept degrading. are you a fucking dog to be walked???] was a mutawa and he never objected to me having my face uncovered. [how kind of him to allow you to show your face] As for your Iranian friend, I have Iranian friends too and yes there are places where people are backward [all TV programming, and all public centers and big cities is not what i call "some places". i dare you to walk anywhere on a main street in Teheran or Jeddah without a hijab! just see what happens], but does that represent life in Iran in general? [fuck yes]
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this dishonesty is really pissing me off.
if you can't even admit that women are treated worse in Islamic countries than in the west then there's nothing for me to talk to you about.

S.A.M. · Dec 28, 2006

IceAgeCivilizations said: ↑

Are the lady's parents allowed to see the lady's face, how 'bout uncles, aunts, grandparents, cousins, etc., where do they draw the line?
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Depends on the social expectations.

S.A.M. · Dec 28, 2006

otheadp said: ↑

and another thing:

this dishonesty is really pissing me off.
if you can't even admit that women are treated worse in Islamic countries than in the west then there's nothing for me to talk to you about.
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So my practical experience is dishonesty and your hypothetical BS is reality?

Thanks for the clarification.
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PS I did used to walk in Jeddah without hijab.

IceAgeCivilizations · Dec 28, 2006

How 'bout that the "social expectation" is to not have your faced covered in public places (unless you're wearing bandages or it's real cold)?

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