Jew/Jews

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by Gustav, Sep 5, 2009.

  1. Gustav Banned Banned

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    pardon
    are there any negative connotations with regards to this as a descriptor of the inhabitants of israel (or the diaspora in general)?

    would "israeli" be more apt? how about "jewish" rather than "jew"?

    Some uses of the term "Jew" are tainted by historic anti-Jewish bigotry. The correct adjectival form is "Jewish"; the use of "Jew" as an adjective (as in "Jew lawyer" rather than "Jewish lawyer") is associated with bigotry. The use of "Jew" or "jew" as a verb (as in "to jew someone down": to bargain for a lower price) is generally seen as an extremely offensive expression based on stereotypes.

    Even when used in a grammatically correct manner as a noun, the term "Jew" can objectify and separate Jews from the remainder of the population. (link)​
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
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  3. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    I have no problem with calling Israelis Jews.

    Now, the problem arises because in popular culture there are insults which infer that Jews are idiots, stupid, and evil.

    ie, Cartmen saying "shut up Jew" and insults where people call other people "Jew" as a derogatory term, some people take it very seriosuly and cant always tell when someone is using it as an insult or not.
     
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  5. Gustav Banned Banned

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    i see
    so ah, when a nigger calls a nigger, a nigger, (rotfl) it is generally ok because malicious intent of the racist variety is lacking.
    just as you, a jew, has no problem calling other jews, jews.

    now
    me, a white man.....

    "fedr is a jew"
    "fedr is jewish"


    do you have a preference?
    i mean i could be.......
     
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  7. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    to say some one is Jewish youd say eg."fedr is Jewish"

    The alternative "fedr is a Jew" can be either the above, or it could be an insult.

    Its not that it depends on a personality its just that it can also be used as an insult, it also depends on wether that guy knows your a Jew or not. I know you know im a Jew, so saying "fedr is a Jew" is all right.

    But if you didnt know i was Jewish and said "fedr is a Jew" that can be seen as derogatory, because id think you were using the term as an insult.

    Look at 420Joey, he called anyone whom disagreed with him a Jew or Freemason without really knowing it.

    Gustav, the safest way to play it is "[insert name] is Jewish"
     
  8. mike47 Banned Banned

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    A Jew is a Jew....so what is the fuss about ?. If you are not happy with a Jew being called a Jew then change the dictionary.....:shrug:.
     
  9. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    The only problem I can think of is that the inhabitants of Israel are not all Jews. Israeli would be more accurate.
     
  10. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    Well, you wouldn't want to refer to the Palestinians as a whole as Muslims, for example.
     
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Israeli would indeed be more apt, and Jewish better than Jew. The latter word might be accurate, but sounds so...tinkly.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krystallnacht

    Naturally, some people have an aversion to the term. After all, surely one can damn ze Jewish people vissout resorting to "the Jews", nicht wahr?
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So if we were for example to refer to a subset of the American population and their motivations, we should say Americans rather than evangelical Christians because not all Americans are evangelical Christians?

    Meanwhile if calling a Jew a Jew or the Jew is antisemitism, then its quite clear that antisemitism has no meaning at all. Because if Jews think Jew is a bad word, well then who is going to decide when its politically correct to call a Jew a Jew?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  13. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    4,100
    I took the context to be referring to the actions of a state. States tend not to represent their people, even majorities. If I look at the OP, it seems to me the inhabitants of Israel are Israelis. I realize this thread has a larger context in relation to other threads, but I am reacting to the OP. Of course it would often be better to refer to citizens of Israel as Israelis.


    I haven't said that calling a jew a jew is anti-semitism. But if one is talking about the actions of a state, than it's better to label it by the state, even if one group predominates.


    This is too general for me to respond to really. There are contexts where Jew, Jews, Jewish persons
    can all be used and I'd have no problem with it.

    Do you think it makes sense to refer to Palestinians as Muslims?
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    If we're referring to the Muslims factions yes. E.g. is Hamas Islamist? Clearly, since they have imposed some social changes that are seen as representative of Muslims. Is it wrong to call Hamas an Islamic group? Yes, because they were elected in a landslide victory.

    Similarly does anyone argue that the Palestinians living in Israel are NOT the ones who want to dispossess/demolish homes/deny "Arabs" their rights?

    Or should we pretend its an Israeli act, when its clearly an act by the Jewish demographic?
     
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    "Ze Jew". Click your heels together when you say it, just to make sure people follow. Or, try saying "the blacks" and really think about it.
     
  16. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    If we are referring to Muslim factions, it would be clear to say Muslim factions then.


    So you think the government represents the majority of the people.

    I don't. I don't see any democracies. Do you?
     
  17. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Er...what now?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  18. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    I figured it was better to run past that issue. I wonder if Hamas refers to itself as a Muslim group that was democratically elected.
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Who do these people represent? The Muslim Israelis? The Christian ones? The Jewish ones? What about these?
     
  20. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    None of the above. Themselves.

    You think they give a shit about the jew on the street.

    Like Bush gave a shit about me.

    Like Obama does.

    Dream on.

    I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

    These people do not give a shit who kills who. They can make money off of whatever. Best if tension is high and people on the street do not consider their own government the enemy.

    This is not limited to Bush or to overt puppet regimes or Arab 'states' or......
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Are you now speaking for all Israelis?

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    I think its disingenuous to say Israelis when we talk of the policies of Israel, because it implies that the 20% non-Jews are actually recognised as Israelis
    Are they?
     
  22. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    4,100
    Were you?

    I think it is absurd to pretend these governments represent anyone. They represent their own interests. Or those who pull their strings.


    Well, far be it for me to think anything other than

    what Tzipi Livni believes.

    The first thing we need to do is stop pretending that governments, especially strategic ones like Israel's but really any of them give a shit about who we think 'their people' are.

    I think the illusion you are playing in to, which of course many Israelis, Jews and Palestinians, etc. buy in to also, is that there are representative leaders in government positions, looking out for citizens interests.

    Those guys love when the blame is aimed at religious, ethnic, foreign groups. It is their bread and butter.
     
  23. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    The more we believe that illusion, the more power they have.
     

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