James R "Kaffir" is not an insult.

[GeoffP]

Last time I checked, those Libyan rebels were having gun battles against Qadaffi's forces.

And the Egyptian military had some small role in getting rid of Mubarak, note - recall all those pictures of protestors in Tahrir square standing on tanks?

I might add the word Sadat, if I may.

 

[S.A.M.]

And whole-life-system political theories that would consign everyone else to second-class citizen status. And you expect everyone else to just kind of believe that it's really just bad press, no matter what the actual proponents of it - like Maududi - say about such ideas. And that we should just pretend that Islamic reformist movements are just crazy, or nonexistent; Maududi way or the highway.

Right.

Hmm you know what would be a demonstration of second class status? If Americans were treated by Arabs the way Arabs are treated by Americans. Does "collateral damages" signify as a status?

 

[GeoffP]

James you need to make up your mind. awhile back on of the mods said something along the lines of for you UFO NUTS out there was recieved as ufo idiots but he didnt mean it that way THAT was ok but now this is not ok? what is the stance? dont wanna stand up for this dude cuz all he really does is troll but you need to treat everyone the same

Enters into the concept of the burden of proof. Theories without it will probably get slammed a lot. I feel for you, having a few heretical impulses myself. But if we didn't, there'd be all kinds of quackery on here.

 

[GeoffP]

Hmm you know what would be a demonstration of second class status? If Americans were treated by Arabs the way Arabs are treated by Americans. Does "collateral damages" signify as a status?

Could you please explain what this has to do with the OP? Or drive back in that direction?

 

[S.A.M.]

Could you please explain what this has to do with the OP? Or drive back in that direction?

You want me to explain the xeniphobia where the Arabic equivalent of a word makes it a pejorative to you? Sorry, thats not possible. I have never understood the concept of racism against a language, not until I read western explanations of Arabic words.

 

[GeoffP]

You want me to explain the xeniphobia where the Arabic equivalent of a word makes it a pejorative to you?

Great! Back on track. ("Xenophobia", but never mind.) It's actually usage that makes it a pejorative, rather than everyone else pointing it out. It's kind of like a Klansman complaining because people object to his hood. I imagine there are better parallels.

Sorry, thats not possible. I have never understood the concept of racism against a language, not until I read western explanations of Arabic words.

Er...how does my taking offense at a pejorative that Muslims are also trying to discourage make it racism? And are you arguing that it's an anti-Arab thing or an anti-Islamic thing? Clearly, it would be the latter since it's a religious issue (none of my Arab friends have ever called me a kuffar, although Chi did a little while ago). So is 'Muslim' a race now?

 

[quadraphonics]

Hmm you know what would be a demonstration of second class status? If Americans were treated by Arabs the way Arabs are treated by Americans.

So, like if Saudi Arabia were to start allowing Americans to immigrate there, live as equals, practice whichever religion they like, and so on?

I guess you meant to refer to Arabs bombing our cities and causing civilian deaths - didn't they already do that? And didn't that have something to do with motivating all of these actions that you deplore?

Or engage in widespread bigoted ideation and stereotyping? Again, already been going on for some time.

 

[S.A.M.]

Great! Back on track. ("Xenophobia", but never mind.) It's actually usage that makes it a pejorative,

Usage by whom? White racists mostly. Other people are not allowed to be offended by any words, images or depictions. And once white racists make any word a pejorative, it is obligatory on the rest of the world to oblige them by erasing it from their languages

Er...how does my taking offense at a pejorative that Muslims are also trying to discourage make it racism?

Muslims are also trying to get people to apologise for the Mohammed cartoons but thats covered by freedom of [non-Muslim] expression. You're confusing graciousness with obligation.

 

[GeoffP]

Oh, them racists

Usage by whom? White racists mostly.

Hard to believe, unfortunately. Did you have a word count? Sorry: what proof did you have that these mythical white racists were responsible? I can find all kinds of English-language Islamic sites where it's used as an insult. I guess they're white racists too.

Muslims are also trying to get people to apologise for the Mohammed cartoons but thats covered by freedom of [non-Muslim] expression.

Well for starters, never you mind the spirit in which the cartoons came about: a ban on drawing Mohammed at all, both within and without the Islamic world. Or how the riots got started in the ME, which was mostly deliberate incitement by Islamist racists. The other tiny difference is that Mohammed is long dead, whereas non-Muslims are (so far) mostly not dead. But let me ask: did Mohammed invent the pejorative kuffaar because he knew the cartoons were coming out 1400 years later? If so, he had more insight than I thought.

I'm just teasing, of course: I'm sure Islamists started using the word kuffaar as a pejorative because they knew the cartoons were coming out 20-30 years later. That makes much more sense.

 

[S.A.M.]

Hard to believe, unfortunately. Did you have a word count? Sorry: what proof did you have that these mythical white racists were responsible? I can find all kinds of English-language Islamic sites where it's used as an insult. I guess they're white racists too. .

Did you somehow miss the official reason why the word is a pejorative? On the other hand, its kind of ironic that by dismissing it as a racist term, the board has effectively made all K*****s equivalent to C**Ts.

lol/

 

[GeoffP]

Oh, goodness me!

Did you somehow miss the official reason why the word is a pejorative? On the other hand, its kind of ironic that by dismissing it as a racist term, the board has effectively made all K*****s equivalent to C**Ts.

lol/

Ooh goody. Let's see if I can follow your turns and leaps here.

I ask:

Sorry: what proof did you have that these mythical white racists were responsible? I can find all kinds of English-language Islamic sites where it's used as an insult. I guess they're white racists too.

And you answer:

Did you somehow miss the official reason why the word is a pejorative?

Ah! So I go to the OP and find that it's Chi bitching about me, and James to some extent. Since you mention the "board", I conclude you mean the board of moderators; ergo, this site! So, since you attribute its being labeled a pejorative to "white racists", I must presume you mean me and James!

See? I did understand what you meant!

Reported. This time it stays on.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ooh goody. Let's see if I can follow your turns and leaps here.

I ask:



And you answer:



Ah! So I go to the OP and find that it's Chi bitching about me, and James to some extent. Since you mention the "board", I conclude you mean the board of moderators; ergo, this site! So, since you attribute its being labeled a pejorative to "white racists", I must presume you mean me and James!

See? I did understand what you meant!

Reported. This time it stays on.

Do learn to read Geoff. It will save so much time explaining things in your language to you.

Read carefully now:

Did you somehow miss the official reason why the word is a pejorative?

See? No sciforums, no Chi, no bans.

Official reason why the word is a pejorative

Let us go to the linguistics moderator for enlightenment:

* * * * NOTE FROM THE LINGUISTICS MODERATOR * * * *

This dispute centers on an issue of LINGUISTICS so I am going to ASSUME AUTHORITY.

This is an English-language website, so the rules and conventions of the English language guide all rules and decisions. If anyone wants to start a thread in Arabic or any other language, they are welcome to do so. But if you're going to write in English, you must obey the rules of English.

In English, the K-word is not only an insult, but it is one of the most vile insults we have. It is comparable to the N-word, which is so vile that most of us don't even spell it out except in a scholarly discussion on the Linguistics subforum, where we're talking about its origin, spelling pronunciation, etc.

The reason for this is that the K-word entered our language through South African English, one of the recognized standard dialects of English. It has come to be an offensive term for people of African ancestry or ethnicity, which makes it almost identical to the N-word in American English. However, unlike in America, a nation of rebels and iconoclasts, where the N-word has been appropriated by Afro-Americans and rehabilitated, this has not happened with the K-word in South Africa. As far as I can tell, it is NEVER spoken in polite company, it is NEVER spoken on radio or TV, and it is NEVER printed. Its use appears to actually be illegal there, although I don't know what the punishment is.

So, in addition to deeply offending any South Africans who wander into our website looking for scholarship, this word could actually get us BANNED FROM THE COUNTRY by corporate, government and educational filters, if it starts showing up here with any regularity. This defeats SciForums's mission of being a place of science and scholarship for the whole world. We are not going to jeopardize this mission so that some precocious kid can get his rocks off by defying the instructions of the Moderators and Administrators, just to show off how cool and macho he is.

So consider this a warning to the entire membership: If I see the K-word again on SciForums, or if someone alerts me to its presence, I WILL DELETE THE POST. If it happens a second time, I WILL BAN THE MEMBER WHO POSTED IT.

I don't know how James feels about this. But I have always operated on the principle that it is much easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. So he and I can argue about it when and if it happens. I'm sure he does not want us blacked out in South Africa either. We've gone to a lot of trouble to avoid getting tangled in the filters in certain European nations, so were not about to let it happen somewhere else.

Capisce?

 

[GeoffP]

Do learn to read Geoff. It will save so much time explaining things in your language to you.

Ah - you're right for once!

Well, kind of.

I mean, that's actually a different meaning and usage. I'd go so far as to say it's essentially a different word. And the other version of the word - you know, the one we're actually discussing - goes back much further. And there's no idea where a specific "board" enters into Fraggle's comment, and you don't actually mention one. So...actually no. But other than all those elementary mistakes in my language, your response was perfect.

So I guess I take my compliments back. :bawl:

And I was going to write it in my diary and everything!: but the "Sam was right" column must stay empty for now.

One day, I am sure it will be full of something.

 

[GeoffP]

Capisce?

My word: I had no idea you were unintelligible in Italian also! Miei complimenti!

 

[Michael]

You'd have to either be an idiot or a racist to think the word Nigger means non-White. As you're not an idiot, I have to assume racism. Have you ever heard a White Supremest defend "the White race" as "White Rights"? They use the exact same arguments.

Which is why I wondered: How do you explain to the Suicide Bomber they have no faith in God? Well, I promise you, while they remain a Suicide Bomber, you can't.

Muslims have no Faith in God - and THAT'S coming from someone Atheist.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah - you're right for once!

Well, kind of.

I mean, that's actually a different meaning and usage. I'd go so far as to say it's essentially a different word. And the other version of the word - you know, the one we're actually discussing - goes back much further. And there's no idea where a specific "board" enters into Fraggle's comment, and you don't actually mention one. So...actually no. But other than all those elementary mistakes in my language, your response was perfect.

So I guess I take my compliments back. :bawl:

And I was going to write it in my diary and everything!: but the "Sam was right" column must stay empty for now.

One day, I am sure it will be full of something.

Well I usually judge the effectiveness of any action by its results, so what happens when you remove a specific word like kufr [rejection of monotheism] and substitute it with a word which means something completely different? Non-Muslims? Disbelievers? Atheists? Well you change the perception of how the word is understood and used not only by those who don't speak the language but also by those who do. So already kufr has changed from rejecting monotheism to rejecting Islamic beliefs. Now it effectively puts all non-Muslims in the same basket. So what was perceived as applying only to those who reject monotheism now embraces everyone who is not Muslim. It also simultaneously makes the difference between kafir and kaffir null and void since it makes being a non-Muslim a slur equivalent to racism.

I leave you to consider how that pans out religiously and linguistically...

And to further demonstrate how actively the word pops up in any debate on Islam or Muslims, I recommend you run a search for the words kuffar in your own posts.

 

[S.A.M.]

You'd have to either be an idiot or a racist to think the word Nigger means non-White

Or a linguist

Nigger is a noun in the English language, most notable for its usage in a pejorative context to refer to black people (generally people of Sub-Saharan African descent), and also as an informal slang term, among other contexts. It is a common ethnic slur. The word originated as a term used in a neutral context to refer to black people, as a variation of the Spanish/Portuguese noun negro, a descendant of the Latin adjective niger, meaning the color "black"

nigger Look up nigger at Dictionary.com
1786, earlier neger (1568, Scottish and northern England dialect), from Fr. nègre, from Sp. negro (see Negro). From the earliest usage it was "the term that carries with it all the obloquy and contempt and rejection which whites have inflicted on blacks" [cited in Gowers, 1965]. But as black inferiority was at one time a near universal assumption in English-speaking lands, the word in some cases could be used without deliberate insult. More sympathetic writers late 18c. and early 19c. seem to have used black (n.) and, after the American Civil War, colored person.

Also applied by English settlers to dark-skinned native peoples in India, Australia, Polynesia. The reclamation of the word as a neutral or positive term in black culture (not universally regarded as a worthwhile enterprise), often with a suggestion of "soul" or "style," is attested first in the U.S. South, later (1968) in the Northern, urban-based Black Power movement.

"You're a fool nigger, and the worst day's work Pa ever did was to buy you," said Scarlett slowly. ... There, she thought, I've said "nigger: and Mother wouldn't like that at all. [Margaret Mitchell, "Gone With the Wind," 1936]

Used in combinations (e.g. nigger-brown) since 1840s for various dark brown or black hues or objects; euphemistic substitutions (e.g. Zulu) began to appear in these senses c.1917. Brazil nuts were called nigger toes by 1896. Variant niggah, attested from 1925 (without the -h, from 1969), is found usually in situations where blacks use the word. Nigra (1944), on the other hand, in certain uses reflects a pronunciation of negro meant to suggest nigger, and is thus deemed (according to a 1960 slang dictionary) "even more derog[atory] than 'nigger.' " Slang phrase nigger in the woodpile attested by 1800; "A mode of accounting for the disappearance of fuel; an unsolved mystery" [R.H. Thornton, "American Glossary," 1912]. Nigger heaven "the top gallery in a (segregated) theater" first attested 1878 in reference to Troy, N.Y.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=nigger

But I agree with you. Black is not non-white anymore than kafir is non-Muslim

 

[GeoffP]

Well I usually judge the effectiveness of any action by its results, so what happens when you remove a specific word like kufr [rejection of monotheism] and substitute it with a word which means something completely different? Non-Muslims? Disbelievers? Atheists? Well you change the perception of how the word is understood and used not only by those who don't speak the language but also by those who do. So already kufr has changed from rejecting monotheism to rejecting Islamic beliefs. Now it effectively puts all non-Muslims in the same basket. So what was perceived as applying only to those who reject monotheism now embraces everyone who is not Muslim.

This is true. If one's perception of monotheism is equivalent to Islamic beliefs - and there is reason to think that such a position is not uncommon, and there are reasons of practice and scripture to think that this is so - it might be a shorter leap to make.

It also simultaneously makes the difference between kafir and kaffir null and void since it makes being a non-Muslim a slur equivalent to racism.

I leave you to consider how that pans out religiously and linguistically...

I wouldn't go so far as to consider it equivalent to racism; there's more borderland in its interpretation, whereas "k-word" applied to Africans is more like an absolute: "bugs". "Inhuman". The modern - and possibly ancient - versions of the same word seem more like an accusation of intransigence, or stupidity.

 

[Michael]

Or a linguist

Have you ever heard a White Supremest defend "the White race" as "White Rights"?

You said Suicide Bombers have no faith in God.
I get it.
So SAM, How are you going to explain to the Suicide Bomber they have no faith in God?
It's not possible. Because they have their faith in God. As long as they remain a Suicide Bomber, killing women and children is good, it's part of Gods plan and will always and forever make sense to them.

Just like the Suicide Bombers, Muslims have no Faith in God. As long as they remain a Muslim, labeling people Kaffir is good, it's part of Gods plan and will always and forever make sense to them.

:shrug:

 

[Michael]

cotten-picker