It's much easier to apologize, than it is to get permission

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wegs, May 3, 2019.

  1. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission. Variant: If it's a good idea, go ahead and do it. It is much easier to apologize than it is to get permission. - Grace Hopper

    Have you ever personally tried this (apologized after/didn't request permission first), and how did it turn out for you? I tend to present my ideas at work, and then ask for permission first, because I'd hate to go through all the effort of working on a project that I thought was a good idea, only to get it shot down.


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  3. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    When I used to train people at work, I'd tell them, "This is the way the boss wants you to do it and this is the way I do it. When the boss is watching, do it her way. When she isn't watching, take your pick."

    I never apologized for doing it my way.
    Ethernos 1997 and wegs like this.
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  5. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Haa, nice!

    Unfortunately, insecurity runs rampant among managers in most companies, therefore they have a tendency to micro-manage their staff, not realizing that they're stifling growth, and creativity.

    Steve Jobs put it best:

    ''It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do, it makes sense to hire smart people, and have them tell us what to do.''
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    It depends on your goal.

    If your goal is praise for a job well-done, but otherwise don't waste your time, then ask permission.

    But if your goal is to accomplish the thing - because it's the best way to do it - and damn the risk of wasted effort - then do first. A project that is already done is far more likely to get accepted than a project that has yet to prove itself.

    That's (one form of) leadership in one's field.
    Ethernos 1997, sideshowbob and wegs like this.
  8. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Okay. This is really helpful!

    My tendency is to ask for permission but of the times recently that I've asked for forgiveness, it was met with respect from not only my teammates, but also management. The decision making process moves at the speed of a glacier here, so sometimes, one has to make an independent ''executive'' decision, and ask for forgiveness, later.
    Ethernos 1997 likes this.
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Yup. That's how you get noticed and groomed for leadership.
  10. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    As a young child this was how I lived my life. The punishment was much worse if I asked for permission, didn't get it and did it anyway. If it was important to me, I did it first without prior permission.

    It's still a good approach. I had a job once that required management to sign off. I was new but my decision making was good so I decided first, called the customer, put the plan into action and got the signature later.

    I made good decisions so they let me operate that way. Other's in my office, not so much. I got promoted and they didn't so I can't say it's a bad approach but you do have to take responsiblity for it. Those who got the signature first, in many cases, were just pushing the responsibility off to someone else.

    It's never a good idea to make your "bosses" job harder.
    wegs likes this.
  11. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Aw :/

    It also shows that you can think on your feet. Any boss should be impressed with that type of employee.


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  12. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    it is a very subjective concept

    do surgeons just go ahead and do what they think would be a good idea then tell the patient after that they are sorry ?
  13. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    are you spending someone else's money that you wont pay back when you are doing it without asking permission ?

    when you offer them the apology, do you offer them the option to have their money back ?
    in reality...
    you are getting paid to come up with ideas.
    and you want to implement an idea that you have not needed to spend money on to implement so they dont lose either way ?
    the fact that they can accept the apology because they lose nothing means a big difference in the nature of what the need to assert your will over another persons.
    this is subjective when compared to a women's liberation concept of social power.
    this is contrasted by the assertion of patriarchal boys-club bully rules when the loudest and first gets all the money/promotion.

    you have to know what type of pool your pissing in before you pull your pants down
  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

    Reminds me of the kid preying for a bike but never getting

    Then he figured out how god operates

    He stole a bike

    Preyed for forgiveness

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  15. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    strategic office politics games of trying to be head of the class is a different game.
    that seems to be the game a foot in the thread.
    corporate environments are based on reputation influence and ego.
    it doesn't matter if you have the best idea if the boss is not going to accept your idea.
    if the system of authority is too overtly concerned with conservative process to minimalise risk
    then that's a different game.
    creative ideas to save cost on systems is a game of reputation
    you need to have the trust of the boss and not upset their ego in front of others.

    you need to know your place in the hierarchy
    being the #2 and offering an idea that makes the #1 who is the bosses favourite look less than you, then your about to enter a whole new game.

    finding a work place where all are treated equally is VERY difficult and very rare.
    even so you need to know the realm in which your operating so you dont inadvertently step on toes.

    knowing who to pitch to or seek approval from is the real game.
    you need to put yourself in the place where you need to seek approval, but know that you will always have approval granted is the true key.
    mostly this is only achieved by instilling trust in a good boss who knows your not going to sink the ship or make the company or department look like an ass by implementing something they have already tried or already have in a secret strategy waiting for funding to be rolled out next financial year/quarter.

    the only way you can get the ethical debate in to play is by creating enemy's because you should already know who and what your dealing with.
    THAT is the true ground work and is why it makes a difference to work for a good company and have a good boss.
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  16. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Our boss bout new weed eaters for us to use… light weight an easy to start… but they woud quit workin after they got hot an no amount of crankin woud get ‘em to start… so after work the boss tried the new weed eaters an said they work fine… so we took ‘em out agan an they still woudnt run after a while… so we started usin the old heavy weed eaters so we coud get the job done… an when boss noticed he was Pizzed an once agan told us to use the new weed eaters… then he came out to check on us an saw that we had hardly done any weed eatin an was just sittin aroung in the shade (waitin for the weed eaters to cool down so we coud then use ‘em for anuther 15 minutes) an then he was double PIZZED… lol.!!!

    So in Concluson:::

    Sometimes you’r Damed if you do… an sometimes you’r Damed if you dont.!!!
  17. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    That's it!
    Some will give you permission and still blame you when it goes wrong. Some will forbid it and take the credit if it goes right, or punish you, no matter how it turns out. Some punish, some forgive.
    And when you've pulled this shit twice, nobody trusts you anyway.
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
  18. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    identifying the personality type of the boss is key.
    the average corporate sales manager(male) is a narcissist who will sell out anyone as quickly as possible to save their own ass or make themselves look better.
    regardless of the industry
    this aspect has been normalised inside most industry's as the point of management of customer facing large worker groups

    the massive recent un noted change is the flattening out of management structures that has removed a lot of the sado-masachistic patriarchal power structures of those systems.
    also with more women coming into those positions as busines seek to increase market share to women so employ women as managers to try and make more money this has/is changed(ing)... s l o w l y . . .
    wegs likes this.
  19. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    It's easier if you really do not care what other people say.

    I felt it prudent to apologize once.
    (back story)
    We had bought an old brick 3 flat in chicago. After the negotiations and financing had been settled, we got a notification from the building department with 3 pages of code violations-----wow---the document had been created 6 months before we saw the building and filed on the day of closure.(suspicious that)
    one of the complaints was "falling plaster in kitchen walls and ceilings"
    ok investigation time
    leaking plumbing
    so, starting from the crawl space, I was tearing walls down and replacing plumbing one floor at a time
    during which time
    I was summoned to building court. The judge was an handsome woman with black hair and her name was judge Black. (not from her hair, it would seem, but rather for her heart.
    She asked if I had repaired the plaster, and I began to explain about the plumbing----
    She retorted: "I don't care what your excuse is young man...................etc..."
    Whereupon, I exclaimed: "What in hell is wrong with you lady, are you an idiot or completely fucking insane? You do not cover over leaking plumbing with plaster, you fix the problem first. That building didn't fall apart in a month, and you expect me to fix it in a month? it took 20 years, where the hell were you then?
    Whereupon, the building inspector flew through the air landing between me and the black heart. Talking a mile a minute, he backed me out the door and into the hallway, where he cautioned me
    that even if she were an idiot, that didn't mean that I had to tell her.
    Then he asked if I could apologize to her, and assured me that he was on my side.
    So, back into the courtroom we went, and I said: "I'm sorry for my outburst your honor, I really should not allow myself to do that."

    That seemed to suffice, and the inspector got me a "long court date"--3 months, and a different judge.

    What has made you apologize?
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  20. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    "your honour, noting the filed documents showing the sale closure date and the back dating of compliance failures, would your honour think there is a possibility that some type of racketeering may have been in effect prior to my purchase & awaiting sale to then forcibly enact non disclosure to the buyer by knowingly removing my access to compliance regulation obligations under the law ?"
    sculptor likes this.
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Get some goats.
  22. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Your honour, I would like to give an explanation - not an excuse. I have only recently come into possession of the property and become aware of these violations. I am attempting repairs as quickly as I can, in order of their severity, with limited resources. Here is the list of work already done or in progress. I request additional time to complete these extensive....
    ... cos, in this judge must have had a heart of molten gold to let you get off so easy. Many wouldn't.
    sculptor likes this.
  23. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    We got our bosses goat ever now an then.!!!

    Our boss was a retired truck driver… an one mornin he was drivin a couple of us to a job… an as we was drivin up a real steep hill we passed a guy walkin down the hill… the guy hollered at our boss an he stopped an looked back an realized the guy was an old buddy of his… so he put the truck in reverse an backed up so they coud talk an they talked for at least 10 minutes… an when they was done our boss let the clutch out kinda quick as he hit the gas sinse we was goin up a steep hill… but the truck lurched backwards about 10 feet befor he realized that it was still in reverse… well we laffed an laffed an laffed but the boss didnt say nuthin or even look over at us

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