'It's a child not a choice...but not if you were raped'

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by visceral_instinct, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    ^

    Would anyone like to explain the logic of the idea that abortion is wrong because a 'child' has the right to live, but not if you were raped?

    After all, if you equate a zygote, embryo or fetus with a child, you'd want to protect it under ANY circumstances, right? You would not, after all, condone killing a born, walking, talking child because his/her mother was raped...

    Yes, yes, I hear you already Lightgigantic et al...She was a slut, she should close her legs,etc. Come get me, pro-lifers. *coils and shadowboxes*
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2011
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  3. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    "When the World is at Peace, a gentleman keeps his Sword by his side."



    - Wu Tsu
     
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  5. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    How the hell is this an answer to the topic?

    You are not a character from a corny movie about the Far East. Stop talking in riddles.
     
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  7. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    You want an answer from me?, as in you will listen and heed my instructions?. Or you want to read my "opinions" and then debate them with your personal words?.


    Peace.
     
  8. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    Neither, I'd like you to answer a point I made.

    You see abortion as murder, yet you want an exception for rape. I'd like to know the logic behind your ideas. If there indeed is any. It seems mostly based on self-righteous misogyny. 'How dare she have sex when she wasn't going to have a baby! Whore! She should keep her legs closed!'
     
  9. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    Yes due to me not wanting to physicaly force people to do things. Giving somebody an instruction and telling them the act is forbidden is different from punishing them for doing these acts.

    I see abortion as murder, I personaly wont ever tell a girl she should get an abortion if she was raped. I will tell the girl that I think it's murder still but I will not physicaly force that girl not to get an abortion, because then i would be the tyrant who is acting out physical judgement, its her Fate and she will be judged by her actions I do not know what is in every individuals heart without meeting them so i can;t give hypothetical judgements at will like everyone seems to like doing.




    Peace.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Mod Hat — Brief note

    Mod Hat — Brief note

    While I generally enjoy creative new pejoratives that I haven't encountered before, I would also suggest that they can be provocative. Or, quite simply, while I find the topic question compelling, pejoratives intended to provoke only signal that one wants a fight, and not a discussion.

    I would ask members to not set their own threads up for failure or closure. Otherwise, I might have to simply fast-forward to the closure part.
     
  11. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    Ok thanks. That isn't quite an answer to my question though. You say you don't want to physically force people to do something...Yet in another thread you said 'she should be forced to have the baby'. So why then do you believe in an exception for rape? This really does come across as a desire to punish women for transgressing a social expectation in having sex but not wanting a baby. If that is not why you want an exception for rape then please explain why you do want one.

    And why do you attack women for said sexual intercourse with language such as 'whore'? Why is consensual sex so unsavoury that it warrants language like 'whore'?
     
  12. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Trying to be creative

    It's a matter of appearances being more important than principles.

    "Abortion is murder!" they cry. But they also don't like to be seen as misogynistic. They don't want to be seen as hostile to rape survivors.

    And that's all it is.

    To the other, at least they're trying to be creative. Republicans just failed, last month, in their effort to redefine rape.

    More accurately, what they did was try to exclude certain kinds of rape from the rape and incest exceptions to the pro-life policy.

    To wit: Give a twelve year-old girl some booze, maybe smoke a joint with her, and then have sex with her while she's too loaded to coherently say no.

    Under the law, this is statutory rape, at least.

    She gets knocked up? Well, according to the failed Republican plan, that wouldn't have counted under the rape and incest consideration. Or, as Nick Bauman put it for Mother Jones: "Rape is only really rape if it involves force."

    As a result, a young girl pregnant through statutory rape not only would not be able to receive public assistance for the abortion, her parents would also be forbidden to use a tax-exempt health savings account. Nor would they be able to deduct, as a medical expense, any personal financial costs spent on that abortion.

    "This bill takes us back to a time when just saying 'no' wasn't enough to qualify as rape," says Steph Sterling, a lawyer and senior adviser to the National Women's Law Center. Laurie Levenson, a former assistant US attorney and expert on criminal law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, notes that the new bill's authors are "using language that's not particularly clear, and some people are going to lose protection." Other types of rapes that would no longer be covered by the exemption include rapes in which the woman was drugged or given excessive amounts of alcohol, rapes of women with limited mental capacity, and many date rapes. "There are a lot of aspects of rape that are not included," Levenson says.

    As for the incest exception, the bill would only allow federally funded abortions if the woman is under 18.

    The bill hasn't been carefully constructed, Levenson notes. The term "forcible rape" is not defined in the federal criminal code, and the bill's authors don't offer their own definition. In some states, there is no legal definition of "forcible rape," making it unclear whether any abortions would be covered by the rape exemption in those jurisdictions.

    Try this argument: It's not rape if you're wearing tight jeans.

    Italy, 1999; Australia, 2010; also Seoul, 2008.

    This is apparently what counts, for conservatives, as reconciling the gap between appearance and principles. They don't want to be seen as hostile to rape survivors, so they just want to change what constitutes rape.
    _____________________

    Notes:

    Baumann, Nick. "The House GOP's Plan to Redefine Rape". Mother Jones. January 28, 2011. MotherJones.com. February 12, 2011. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion

    Stanley, Alessandra. "Ruling on Tight Jeans and Rape Sets Off Anger in Italy". The New York Times. February 16, 1999. NYTimes.com. February 12, 2011. http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/16/world/ruling-on-tight-jeans-and-rape-sets-off-anger-in-italy.html

    Shears, Richard. "You're not guilty of rape: Those skinny jeans were too tight to remove by yourself, jury rules". Mail Online. May 1, 2010. DailyMail.co.uk. February 12, 2011. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ose-skinny-jeans-tight-remove-jury-rules.html
     
  14. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    Tiassa Do you support Eugenics?.


    Heart
     
  15. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    You could have said you dont agree with me instead of Rambling. "Having a Baby" isnt forcing anything from me. Natural Birth is Process of life She would be the one trying to physicaly stop something from happening by natural course.

    You want me to be decisive and say I want something to be made Law and advocate punishment. Nay I wont endorse Punishments upon people on earth.


    You want to have sex and then be able to Abort the babies, You think I view you as a slut and look down on you. Maybe deep down you are ashamed of yourself and feel emotional towards my statements.

    Do you have a Child are you a mother?

    Peace
     
  16. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    Rambling? I made clear, coherent points.

    It is if you prevent someone from getting an abortion.

    Which is no more wrong than using antibiotics. Natural =/= good.

    I don't wish to abort anything. I would rather never get pregnant in the first place. Sadly permanent sterilization costs more than I even own at all, so I would like to have a back up plan if that extra-safe condom ruptures.

    Ad hominem. It's not about me, it's about an issue I raised.

    Since you asked? Nope. Why would I be ashamed of aborting an imaginary 'baby'? I've never been pregnant...

    Nope.
     
  17. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    You still have not answered my question as to why you feel that 'murder' (ie abortion) is right if you were raped but not if you chose to have sex.

    Neither have you answered my question of why you think having sex when you don't want a child equals being a slut. Instead you've focused on me, my emotional state and my character.

    If you can answer my points then please do. Take your ad hominem slush elsewhere.
     
  18. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    Ok then you don't agree with my opinion that women should have the baby then put it up for adoption, You think it;s ok to kill the baby and use abortion as a last resort form of contraception. Im not forcing people to do anything, my opinions of what i would like to be are not actions or physical forcing it is my belief.


    Virtue
     
  19. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    You have yet again ignored the question of why you feel there should be an exception for rape.

    Please re-read #14 and answer directly. Is that so hard? 14 posts, and you won't say why you are for abortion in the case of rape, but erupt in disgust and rage at the idea of a woman having an abortion because she simply doesn't want a baby.
     
  20. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    I told you already, The Girl who was raped was forced to have the baby, but i still count it as murder if she has the abortion.

    I erupted never only spoke bluntly as I am doing now.


    If you dont like what I say then You dont have to agree.


    Peace.
     
  21. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    The most extreme anti-abortion activists don't believe you should be able to get an abortion even in cases of rape.
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    No ....

    It's an interesting concept, but no.
     
  23. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    I see,


    Pea.ce
     

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