Israeli right winger endorses one state solution!

Discussion in 'World Events' started by S.A.M., Jun 2, 2010.

  1. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Because the creation of Israel was just. These were refugees of genocide, and the Jews had historically been persecuted just for being Jews.

    The Arabs could not tolerate the smallest loss of political control, since Islam is perceived as the perfect religious and political system. This has nothing to do with justice, only ego and Islamic Zionism.
     
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    So taking away another people right because the jews wanted that land is just. No spider Israel's creation wasn't just. you can keep repeating now and eon it will still be a false statement. just because they jews were persecuted doesn't mean you steal from others and persecute them.

    that's just your bigotry talking. they were perfectly willing to work with the jewish people so long as they didn't seek dominion over them which they did.
     
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Who took away anyone's rights?
     
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  7. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    The jews took away the palestinians rights? are you stupid are something. Israel creation involved taking away these rights: the palestinians right to self determination, their right to live in peace on and in their own lands, the palestinians right not to have their property taken, and the palestinains right to buy and sell property.
     
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all. The creation of Israel did not involve taking away rights from anyone. The Palestinians still had the right to self determination, self governance and property rights on their partitioned land.

    The only thing that made independence the disaster it was for the Palestinians, was that the Arabs had no conception of what was going on in the world at the time. They were an isolated, backwards people with no concept of a world community. The Islamic world has been stagnant for hundreds of years. The only thing they care about is their own religiously fueled sense of entitlement to the planet. They are just now waking up to the fact that they must join the rest of humanity, that their eye for an eye form of justice may work fine on the tribal level, but it doesn't work between nations. Israel just happens to be on the front lines, but Islam is at war with the entire modern world.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
  9. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    yes at all.
    so the palestinians could still choose their political status in Israel?
    by taking some of their land and giving it to jews they were denied the right to self determination. Sorry but taking land away from them is not them choosing their politcal status it was having it decided for them. though they probably would have accepted that had Israel not waged a war to take the rest of palestine away from them. also the pariating is invalid it was a violation of the UN charter it a denied the palestinians their right to seld determination( and to add insult to injury gave it to another people who didn't deserve it) and B went against UN policy of splitting up the former colonial territories into different states. in fact it prohibited. the charter or the resolution specifically stated states has to be made within the confines of the borders of the colonies
     
  10. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    Israel can only be justified by "a religiously fueled sense of entitlement to Israel" and a desire to give justice to the Jews for what they suffered. Or You can justify Israel by might makes right. But might makes right contradicts justice as a value.

    Complaining about Islamic entitlement contradicts supporting Jewish entitlement.

    Saying that what was done to Jews means they deserve something contradicts saying that what was done to Palestinians is their own tough luck and they should deal with it?

    I guess tribal loyalty trumps ethics and logic.



    As far as the Palestinians were so stupid that they deserve what happened to them argument:

    Should the Palestinians have massacred the Zionists immigrants in 1915 when they still could? Should the Native Americans have know enough to stop fighting among themselves and wipe out every European who set foot on America. Does native American stupidity and weakness justify them losing their land or does it explain them losing their land?
     
  11. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    Non-Semite Jews were born in Israel. (The European descended Jews think they are Semites.) Why would you say a Yemeni Jew can stay but a Polish Jew must leave?

    People born some place should never be told to leave the town where they were born and raised.

    Jews say that Israel/palestine should be theres because they lived there a long time ago and they are more attached to Israel than they are to any other place. You reject that.

    Palestinians say they should have the right to return to Palestine/Israel because they lived their 60 years ago and they are more attached to Palestine and you accept that?

    What the hell is the difference except for the number of years they were away?

    You can say the difference is that the Jews took Palestine by force. The Jews claim they were forced out of Israel and they were definitely abused by force while they were away. People should not be allowed to steal each other's land but all land is stolen. Land does not belong to people. Every baby has as much right to any piece of land as anybody else does. Land ownership is a fiction that we allow because it is useful economically and it reduces conflict over control of land.

    So who should get Israel?: the people who were there a long time ago, the people who were there a while ago, or the people who are there now?

    How far back in time should we go in taking property from the descendants of the thieves and giving it to the descendants of those who were stolen from?
     
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    the jewish claim can be invalidated because it is based on ilegitiamiate ownership of it.
     
  13. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    Nobody acquires land legally. It's all stolen property.

    If suffering that would happen to the Jews is irrelevant then the suffering that has happened to Palestinians is also irrelevant. If it is OK to steal from Jews now then it was OK to steal from Palestinians then. European Jews have lived there and put their work into that land for a few generations. They have no other homeland.


    The Jews owned 10% of Palestine and were 30% of the population when the UN decided to give them control over 50% of Palestine and the UN thereby created this tragedy by acting unjustly.

    Giving 90% of the land to the Palestinians as it was in 1948 would no longer be justice. But the Palestinians should be paid the full value of the land that was stolen with interest on the debt that they are owed.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    This is the first instance I have heard of where a Jewish politician in Israel endorses the one state solution

    Its a beginning. I read that Reuven Rivlin, speaker of the Knesset, another right winger, has also spoken in favour of a one state that absorbs the West Bank Palestinians [clearly Gaza is still the dumping ground for demographic excesses]. But it must be in Hebrew, because I cannot find it.
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    You know there are whackos all over the place. The two sides need to start building trust and respecting each other. The problem is no one in power wants to be the first.
     
  16. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    To totally invalidate the Jewish claim you have to invalidate all claims because they all suffer from the same flaws as the Jewish claim.

    If some Jew is born in a house that his parents bought from other Jews who built the house after buying the land from another Jew who bought the land from the government which stole the land how is that Jews claim to his land totally illegitimate.

    The Palestinians and other Arabs and Turks surely stole land from each other through feudalism and intrigue over the years. The Canaanite tribes including the Hebrews stole land. There is nothing pure and natural about the land ownership situation in pre-zionist Palestine.

    Jews are partly descended from people who once lived in Palestine and Palestinians are partly descended from people who were not in Palestine 1000 years ago. The Palestinians were not pure and just towards the Jewish immigrants but I also don't buy that propaganda line that the Zionist only took the Palestinians land in self defense. The British and the UN (USA+Russia) created a situation that pushed the Zionist and Palestinians into preparing to steal each others land and defend their own land.

    I can't get absolute here and say that the Zionists are 100% wrong and must return 100% of what they took.

    The real problem is finding out how the Palestinians are going to get anything. I don't think they will win by war. I don't expect a mighty unified Arab world any time soon. If this might Unified Arab world emerged and pushed Israel hard then Israel might do worse things than it has so far.
     
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    Only if you reflect standards back through time some I do not do.

    when property is gained though illegitimate mean it makes all following transactions regarding illegitimate unless transfered to the person/people it was illegitimately taken from. in other words when gained illegitimately it illegitimizes all following changes of possession

    not saying they didn't but at the time that was perfectly legal.

    they aren't 100% wrong but they do need to return 100% of what was gained illegally.

    thats the 64 thousand dollar question
     
  18. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I think Israel is justified by humanitarian and secular reasons. It is religion that caused this group to exist in the first place, but as an atheist who has also seen anti-semitism, I think a strong argument can be made for the necessity of a Jewish state.

    Are there humanitarian reasons that would justify the elimination of Israel as an essentially Jewish political entity? I think there are humanitarian justifications for ending such things as the blockade on Gaza, and normalizing relations between Israel and Palestine, but what do you think would really happen? Jews would be in peril, most of them becoming refugees fleeing from Palestinian revenge killings. The US would lose an ally in the Middle East. Jewish religious centers would be attacked. It would be the same situation as in the 1920s, when Jewish/Arab riots occurred.
     
  19. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    false

    So because the Israelis/jews got away with for 60 years the palestinians shouldn't get their property back. No part of property law says we have to factor in the suffering of those who benefited from the crime into weather or not justice is done.


    yes and one that the just solution to is returning said both political and in individual ownership back to the palestinians.

    So you would strip the palestinians of yet another right? haven't they had enough of their rights taken from them? Is is not your, spider's, nor mine place to say the palestinians should accept money and not get their land back; that choice under international law resides with the palestinians and other refugees like them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I think unless Jews address their own tribalism they will face antisemitism. We face the same problems with the caste system in India, so I know full well how damaging such ethnocentrism is to any society. In every point of history, intellectuals have addressed the notions of Jewish exceptionalism, you can call it antisemitism and set it aside but as an atheist Jew who lives under the US constitution and supports a Jewish state in Palestine, you know how it works.
     
  21. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    please tell what possible secular and humanitarian reason could their possiblely be to take land and rights from one group and give to another simply because they want them?

    there are legal ones I won't bother responding to the rest of your drivel.
     
  22. Mr.Spock Back from the dead Valued Senior Member

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    I can understand why they support it, what I dont understand is why you support it, claiming Israel is the worst country on the planet(after the US).
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Currently it is, but it need not always be so.
     

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