Israel & Palestine (v2)

Recognizing their legal rights for one thing. Recognizing that the establishing of a state over them palestinians just for jews was wrong.

 

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I think the first move is going to have to come from Israel. The palestinians I believe don't have the room to afford to make a strong overture for peace with everything that entails(concessions and willing limititations one self) and be wrong (not having it returned) the Israelis can.

 

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The Israelis will never consent to the abolition of their state. No credible party is even suggesting that's an option. Palestinian legal rights are dependent on the security of Israel. No settlement between them is possible as long as there is a war going on.

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eace:

 

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Well I know that. They are firm believers of we stole it fair and square so its ours but that's not what I am asking I am merely saying that recognizing that its creation's dispossesing the palestinians was wrong) it the power of apolagizing.

No they aren't. The palestinians legal rights supercedes Israel's wishes to not give them their rights(which is as much as you want to pretend otherwise is what Israel's demanding its "security" is). Also the only reason there is a war is because the palestinians rights aren't recognized something I know you know. Still the same old spider you want to punish the palestinians for Israel's crimes.

 

I disagree personally, the fact remains that when it comes to the peace talks almost everytime Israel has come to the table and the UN had to drag Palestine in to even talk about peace.

Israel wants peace, but theyre not sure Palestine does. And as a personal note, neither am I.

 

Um Hamas was screaming for some form of peaceful talks and Israel ignored it. Plus Israel has never offered anything to them.

I see it flipped.





but to show my point think of it in gambling terms the palestinians are short stack. they need to believe in greater chance of pay off to be willing to take that chance because any losses they take have a far more signifigant effect on their later ability to influence things.

 

There are complex issues at play and both sides are insisting on pre conditions to even get to the talking stage. Also, importantly, if the Palestinians don`t sort out their differences and speak in a single unified voice, its not going anywhere.

 

Why does Israel have to offer anything? The fact is, is that they are going out of their way to make peace, do remember that in a war Israel would win.

If you and me are playing chess, I capture your queen, 5 pawns, 2 rooks, 1 bishop, and 2 knights, and you have only taken a pawn, it would be ridiculous for you to say "if you give me 100 dollars I will call it a tie"

pj, any Israeli or pro Israeli treats such a situation as offensive and demeaning, their arguement is "why should we go out of our way to make peace when we could just as easily defeat them and get the same result"

The problem is after people start saying that above statement, it enables nutcases that are wholly intent on reducing palestine to glass to get elected.

Pj, the fact is that Palestine has to make the first move, they are at the disadvantage so they need to make it clear that Israel will gain from a treaty.

 

The only thing Israel wants is for Palestine to stop shooting rockets, that is the ONLY offering Palestine needs to make.

If the Palestinians stop, the Israelis will see there is no reason to shoot back, hence total nutcases that support first strike policy will not only be impeached, they would be disgraced.

 

Mine too. It'd be a dream come true for me, spidergoat, cheskichips, fedr808, and I'd say 70-85% of the Jewish Israeli population. And it should come hand in hand with their recognition of Israel as the home of the Jewish people -- i.e. (1) stop trying to drive us into the sea, and (2) renounce the cynically and incorrectly called "'palestinian' right of return". Everything else is easily negotiable -- Jerusalem, land/water rights, the temporary demilitarization of the new Arab state, continuity and even a connection between Gaza and Judea/Samaria... those are all details. First the 'palestinians' have to make a decision on the above 2 points. But they don't want to do that. They want THE WHOLE PIE... Well, you can't have the whole pie. You have to share.

 

otheadp: "You have to share."

You have to share it all: Ethic separatism according Jews exclusive rights is not sharing; it's apartheid. Apartheid must end before there can be meaningful reconciliation.

 

Jews and Israelis want to end what you incorrectly call "apartheid" as much as you do. I've outlined the only way it could be done in my previous post.

 

Notes from the J Street national conference:

 

because they bear the burden of igniting the conflict and they are in the postition of power.

is the demanding more land from the palestinians is that how their going out of their way for peace? Is the denying the palestinians have a valid claim to palestine and acting as if letting them keep what land the do have is major concession is that how their going out of their way for peace? Is the denying the palestinians are a people is that how their going out of their way for peace? Is demanding they cede rights legally garanteed is that how their going out of their way for peace?

So what if they'd win a war can they want peace over victory. the palestinians have already shown to be willing to do that.

bad analogy if you lose a chess match you don't lose anything.

and that's why the palestinians refuse to deal. If the Israelis demand everything simply because they could take it if they want to than their is no reason for the palestinians to come to the table. So your defense for the Israelis wanting peace is that why should they unless they get everything they want. You just showed why they don't want peace. They(Israel and its supporters) need to learn what a compromise is. The palestinians find it demeaning and offensive that it they can't get back what Israel illegally annexed in accordance with the arab states in 48 but the palestinians have long since made that concession. If they find being asked to make an equal concession or even a major one no where near as big offensive and demeaning the problem is with them.

nutcasery is mainstream in Israel. Israel willfully distorts its historical teachings to ensure the population doesn't question Israeli actions against the palestinians. at least 40% of Israelis think that jews were the majority in 48 over half think that the arabs got more land relative to population. the fact is a major change in teaching history needs to happen to get the right kind of people for peace.

No fed the fact remains that Israel must make the first move. Palestine has made concession after concession only to see Israel betray them.

No fed Israel has gained enough from palestine. If Israel wants peace it has to quit demanding submission and supplication from palestine. History has shown us the way to ensure peace is through respect from the powerful/victor to the weak/defeated not the taking of more through force until the weak are no longer capable. The allies did to the central powers after WW1 and it was the peace treaty for WW1 that led to WW2.

 

and they have offered it time and again and ever time Israel has continued to abuse the palestinians. The palestinians have no reason to stop as things won't better for them no matter what they will do. Israel will still not recognize their legal rights nor stop supporting the settlers illegal land grabbing.

 

Your 2 points are bullshit. the palestinians have never wanted to drive the jews into the sea and sorry the palestinians rights are nonnegotiable and yes that includes the not cynical and entirely accurate right of return and your full of shit to say that the rest is negotiable. Israel has already stated that none of that is to be negotiated.

 

Then why is it that Israel breaks over 70% of all ceasefires?

Why don't the facts match your fantasies?

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to fed spider otheadp and Israel no you don't want peace you want palestinian submission. You won't want peace until you quit demanding they submit and treat them as an equal partner to peace. So long as your saying that for peace to happen Israel needs to get everything it wants for peace negoitations to happen you don't want peace over victory you want victory over peace. If you want victory more than peace YOUR THE PROBLEM.

 

Pj all of what you said is mostly opinion, but that is BS,

This is Israel going out of it's way to make peace

 

How do you explain this?