Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

You are indeed a curious specimen. :m:

 

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Granted, not identical scenarios, but clear and significant comparisons exist. Apartheid, whether based on race, religion or colour is still apartheid.

A valid observation, but not an insurmountable obstacle to change.

 

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No and the fact you call the palestinians wishing to exercise the legally mandated under mulitple points of international law the right to either choose to return to their lost land or resettle someplace else and accept cash for it is equal to the Israelis literal using military means to drive out the Palestinians and than force them on pain of death to stay. also are you arrogant enough to think you should make that choice for them?




oh and I would have been perfectly willing to engage the rest of your post had you not literally seemed to have lost control of yourself.

 

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One thing that I believe is needed in any peace deal is that since,and even if they did) not every palestinian family is going to be able to return and some don't that Israel be required to make a statement that does the following
1. recognizes that their efforts to get what they wanted required the illegal dispossession of another people and that their effort to do so was and is wrong.
2. apologizes for the crimes against the palestinians
3. acknowledge and affirm that even though thanks to their efforts of avoiding being held accountable for their crimes for so long many palestinian are going to be denied their legally mandated rights it does in no way shape or form that the agreement reaches provides a legal precedent to deny other their right of return.

 

And presumably, then, in the states surrounding Israel also. I think - again - that this underscores Two-State.

 

the way Israel wants a two state solution to happen it would never work

 

In this, I can agree.

 

Iran is a relatively modern and tolerant culture, though, compared to Israel's other neighbors. In spite of their current disagreements, I consider them to be Israel's best shot.

And it is only going to result in making the right-wing in Israel more vicious and more defensive. Fortunately, Livni has capitalized on Netanyahu's lapse, and she may be able to force a renegotiation of the current government.

You see? You call anyone who criticizes the Arabs racists, and then you tune them out. You wonder why I get so coarse. There you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia

Saudi Arabia is the main backer of Hamas. They obviously don't have a very forward-looking concept of human rights. In fact, their laws have been officially geared, for a long time, toward denying people the right to practice their religion publicly. If Hamas had practices mirroring those of Saudi Arabia, how would you expect the Jewish people to be treated?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Palestinian_National_Authority

Even in West Bank, which is a progressive paradise compared to Gaza, the state of religious freedom is actually quite bleak.

Now, please try to seriously contemplate being an Israeli-born Jew, and you have people like S.A.M. saying that you are obligated to live under a government in which the Muslims have majority control over the laws that you are forced to live under.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel

Although Israel's record on human rights is far from perfect, which is not difficult at all for me to acknowledge, there is a double-standard at play, here.

When I try to drive at this point, you seem to ignore it. It doesn't even seem to register with you. While reading my posts and those of certain others embroiled in this discussion, all that you seem to be able to see is a caricature that you have built-up in your head.

You are living in a dream-world where you can put the players involved here into neat categories, and all of them seem to play the roles that you have set for them. You have the cartoon villain, the innocent victim, the ignorant outsider, and trouble-making goons you try to ignore. Reality is never quite that tidy. You know this, but you don't seem to have fully realized it. Whatever script you have in your head, quit just assuming that someone who doesn't go by it is some random trouble-maker.

This is not going to happen if they are made to feel defensive, Bells. We are dealing with human beings. You can't just manipulate human beings by puppeting them into positions that you find to be attractive. In the real world, this only serves to create resentment, often violence.

The "bad side." Please, don't be ridiculous.

[quite]She also stated she would not change anything into the incursion into the Gaza Strip.. And she supports the blockade during that incursion, where nothing was getting in..[/quote]Of course. She did help to set up the blockade. Hamas is a very violent organization, and they do tend to go to a lot of trouble to smuggle weapons into the region. I do not think that her decision was very productive, but I understand why she made it.

Unfortunately, I cannot think of any alternatives that I could honestly say would work. That doesn't sound like a very attractive statement, and I don't intend for it to be. It is a statement of my complete helplessness to manufacture a solution that I honestly think would work in the long-term.

Yes, I know that your solution is for the IDF to simply withdraw from Gaza Strip altogether and start making nice with the Palestinians, but you don't seem to comprehend what would actually happen. If the Israelies were to altogether withdraw, Hamas would use it as a chance to recoup and to strengthen their old on Gaza Strip. They would continue attacking supporters of Fatah. It just wouldn't work.

They are putting pressure on the Palestinians, though. Remember, you advocate putting external pressure on the Israelies in order to force them to change their policies for the long-term. Well, the Israelies are using their blockade as a means of external pressure. You obviously think this sort of measure works, so I would logically think that you would agree with it. Personally, all I think it's apt to do in the long-term is breed resentment, but what the fuck do I know.

However, I do have a peculiar view on it, and I assure you that I am not doing it for the sake of being a gonzo. If you would hear me out on it, you might start to see how I am putting this together. Although Netanyahu probably never planned it this way, the way he has reacted to the world's reaction to the recent flotilla incident might very well have changed the way that discourse is carried out in this conflict. That is, the incident may very well have proven to some of the Palestinians that there is a means of getting what they want without firing a single weapon.

Well, let's assume the theory that the incident actually has awakened in some individuals the concept of seeking out non-violent solutions. If we can soak up the governing principles of the effect, then we can formulate a model for replicating it.

Hmm. Thanks, Chomsky.

Personally, I think it speaks more of their stupidity. You seem to be operating under the pretext that being "victims" somehow absolves them from any responsibility for their own actions. You seem very hesitant to make any serious criticism of the choices they have made.

Actually, I think that "martyrdom" has an inextricable sense of importance in Islamic culture. However, what Shahid entails can be interpreted in various different ways, some more metaphorical than others. For example, you can be called a martyr if you die in child-birth, but you can also be called a martyr if you die in the defense of your own property. If you want to be extremely liberal, perhaps a martyr needn't die at all. It is a very complicated concept.

Unfortunately, Hamas tends toward a more literalist, violent interpretation, so they are dangerous. On the other hand, there are some other Jihadist movements out there that have shown promise. In fact, I consider Hezbollah to be a bit of a model.

Then why don't you ever object when Muslims do it to others?

Whereas I tend to favor republicanism, lower-case spelling.

Irrelevant unless what you are assuring me about is your skill as a maid.

Well, it was the apparent weakness of the Alignment that caused them to lose popularity in the first place. Remember, there was a lot of upset over the fact that the Israeli government was releasing reams of convicted criminals just to get back a handful of IDF soldiers. This sort of thing left a lot of Israelies disaffected with the Alignment. Livni has no other choice but to market Kadima as having a stronger backbone than Likud.

Mousavi can handle himself. He is a bright boy. However, Iran would still have their Supreme Leader, even under Mousavi's government. Mousavi is still probably not entirely what the Israelies are looking for. They'll just have to learn how to compromise. For that matter, Mousavi would have to compromise a lot of his ideals to be able to function in the government that he hopes to become a leader in; expecting a nice, compliant Iran is for people who are living in a fucking dream-world. I never wanted it, either. I'd rather see a strong Iran that serves as a leader in the region.

 

Never said it wasn't, merely that the solutions in these cases are very different.

No I was talking about all Jews, and as long as your going to equate Orthodox Zionist Jews with all Jews I will point out that flaw of that logic, or better yet should I start calling all Muslims. fanatical terrorists?

 

Well that's nor really a leap, Iran used to be Israel biggest ally in the region.

funny you would use that to defend Israel but ignore that its the exact case of what's happening with the palestinians. also when your on the defensive or feel that way your less likely to be willing to make concessions

 

Israel is not launching missiles at anybody unless you count their attacks on Hamas weapon stores. Unless that fatass Netanyahu really is crazy and ignorant enough to attack Iran, there is nothing that can be gained from it.

Israel isn't about to win some popularity contest with their blockade, but I'm not sure what else to have them do. It's not that I agree with it, but I just don't know what to offer as an alternative.

I know that your alternative is to simply drop the blockade entirely and pull all of the Jewish settlers out of all of the territories that are claimed by Hamas. What you don't seem to realize is that Hamas would just bring in a whole lot of powerful, accurate weapons, and they would start attacking Israeli civilians with as much force as they possibly can. The IDF would have to respond by just carpet-bombing the motherfuckers until all of them are dead. The Pals are not these innocent, helpless victims acting out of desperation; they come from a violent and deeply dysfunctional culture, and that's the part that you don't seem to be able to accept. Your idea leads to death and destruction, you fucking deluded ass.

Do you think that the Israelies can make some policy change, and suddenly the Pals and the Israelies would gather together and sing Chumbaya? If so, you sound like those assholes who promoted the Iraq war: remember how the Iraqis were supposed to greet American troops with roses? Reality doesn't fit in with your fucking dream world.

The situation is just about as fucked-up as when Russian peasants were having to force each other to stay on land that wouldn't grow enough food to feed them because, if some of them left, the remaining ones would lose what little land they had. There is a fucking conundrum every direction you can possibly go. Do you remotely understand the concept of dilemma?

Yes. Fortunately, the flotilla operation recently has had some empowering effect on the Palestinians, demonstrating their ability to acheive their ends without the use of violence. Hopefully, one of its consequences will be a widespread change in tone. The only question is whether the message will really take. If it doesn't, we're back to square one.

 

Simple, pretend Gaza is dead to them, wall of its boards with Israel and surround it with anti-rocket weapons like CWIS and M-THEL.

 

They're working on it.

Prediction: the pro-Palestinian fools would just pitch up a cry that "Gaza is like a concentration camp! Waaaah!"

Has anyone really bothered to investigate WHY the Israelies are so bent on maintaining a Jewish majority? It's pretty easy if you bother to think about it for five minutes. All you have to do is examine the policies that are prevalent in Muslim countries that observe Sharia Law. In Saudi Arabia, which is Hamas' main sponsor state, religious freedom doesn't exist.

Yeah, even Reformist Zionism is ugly, but the Jews don't want to live under Sharia Law. Feel free to suggest alternatives. My ears are open. I'm sure a lot of Jews have their ears open. If you have some magic bullet to make Reformist Zionism unnecessary, the Jews would build a fucking mile-high statue in your honor.

 

We're discussing an alternative over here:

Israeli right winger endorses one state soluition! (a Sf thread in WorldEvents)

 

Concentration camp controlled by who, not Israel in that case, Gaza will have its sea boarder and its Egyptian boarder, and thus gaza can do what it wants with a sea board and Egypt with its Egyptian boarder. I'm advocating Israel end the blockade and any interaction with Gaza above shotting down rockets and firing back with artillery, that pretend gaza is dead to them.

I have no problem with Israel maintaining a Jewish majority, heck they could still maintain a majority even if they take in the west bank as long as the West Bank Palestinians birth rate drops dramatically, either that or they pull out from the west bank completely, leave the settlers to become "Palestinians" or remove the settlers by force, but they can't have both the west bank and Jewish hegemony at the same time, they have to give up one or the other.

 

No they just shooting children for shits and giggles. slowly opushing the palestinians into a smaller and smaller space. Despite what you wish to believe the palestinians are very much on the defensive.

you could always do what I want. ignore personal feelings and follow the law.

that is hardly what I believe

not anywhere near as certain as you'd like it to be and not any where near as illegally as you think The laws against attacking civilians get loosened when as Israel has done you use them in a military fashion and use them to annex land in occupied lands. Is The IDF would have to respond by just carpet-bombing the motherfuckers until all of them are dead.[/QUOTE] or you know the could just undercut the need for violence and just stop denying them their rights.

yeah actually they are.

for someone who whines about being called a bigot your sure make the statements of a bigot. their culture became what it is because of the Zionist efforts to take and steal from them.

I as a matter of principle refuse to accept things that are not true.

No my idea leads to peace by removing any need for violence. and rather than work yourself up into another frothing rage you should perhaps learn what me ideas actually are?

No of couse not which is whyfor my ideas I want it to happen over decades possible centuaries.

I Was not one to believe such idiocies.

actually it does. reality and the law however do not watch up with your wishes.

yes. Do you remotely understand the concept of civility?

which is 95% of what they do. the only reason their violent is because their nonviolence is ignored.

their is no change that needs to happen. the palestinians are by far more peaceful than any reasonable person could expect them to be given what has befallen them.

 

because they can't stand to have to treat those they have abused as equals.

And the palestinians for the most part don't. but ISrael wants are irrelevant the palestinians have the choice legally to regain that which wa sstolen from them if they wish.

 

As the One Avatar of Palestinian Rights and Justice, I hereby officially reject any compromise with The Murderous Jews. That they'd even suggest such measures is simply an admission of their weakness, and a pathetic attempt to forestall the Inevitable Retribution.

The spineless "centrists" and "bridge-builders" will be the next ones up against the wall, once the imminent Desruction of the Zionist Aggressor comes to pass.

 

Do you just lack the cognitive plasticity to comprehend a complex character?

Well, what alternative do you suggest to keeping them on the defensive?

Oh, you mean the Jews should ignore their instinct of self-preservation.

Let's envision this as a gun-fight:

You have been trying to murder me for hours, but you are a very bad shot.

I never miss, but I don't want to kill you.

I have blown off one of your knee-caps and wounded your right-hand, but I have apologized for it and thrown you some bandages and a splint kit to try to put yourself back together.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/137709

However, you insist that you also need food because you are very hungry, and it would also be nice if you had some shaving creme.

Therefore, I have been letting your friends bring you said materials and then some.

Unfortunately, your friends have also been bringing you spare ammunition and more weapons, and you have been using them to shoot at me.

Therefore, I stopped your friends from bringing you crap for a while. Besides, you had more than you really needed, anyway.

However, I felt very sorry for you because you were looking very very hungry and shabby, so I decided to let your friends start bringing you food and shaving creme again...

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177929

...as long as they are clearly not bringing you weapons, ammunition or crap you could use to make weapons or ammunition.

Because I am fucking tired of being shot at.

Now, a lot of your friends are saying that I should drop my weapon and stand out in the open, so we kiss and make up. I'm supposed to make the first move because I have obviously been very mean and unfair to you.

Last time I did that, though, you tried to blow my fucking head off.

BECAUSE YOU ARE A FUCKING LUNATIC PSYCHOPATH, AND YOU ARE TRYING TO MURDER ME!

Should I drop the gun? Would it be remotely logical?

The Israelies have tried that. They have been letting Palestinian children go to Israeli schools, for example. Their parents strapped bombs to their children's chests to see how many Jews they could murder while blowing their own children into chewy chunks.

http://www.ecaar.org/Newsletter/Nov04/saleh.htm

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I've heard the same story before. You think the Palestinians are all a bunch of saints because you have a demented fucking love affair with Hamas.

Look, Arabs have sat in the fucking Knesset for ripe fucking decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

So when Arabs and Palestinians are found living in Israel, they can apply for citizenship. If they need to, they can draw welfare benefits. They are treated at Israeli hospitals, and they can and do run for political office. Oh, and they don't have to serve in the military if they don't want to.

When Jews are found living in West Bank, they are labelled "settlers" and shot at with rockets.

Are you sensing a double-standard, here?

I have stated openly and repeatedly that I advocate making intentional ignorance a capital crime, even though I believe that convicted murderers should be given a second chance to prove their worth to society. The wantonly ignorant do far more damage to society.

And now you are making shit up.

I think it's relevant that Israel has been easing restrictions on Gaza for months going, not just in light of recent incidents.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177929

That is with the Hamas government officially at war with them.

Hamas is living in a fantasy land where they are charging victoriously against the evil Jews, and they are disconnected from reality on a level that rivals Fox News. The only way they can possibly be dealt with is by shooting at them until they don't move anymore. They follow a concept of Shahid that literally assumes that anyone who dies while killing the enemies of God, which for them are the fucking Jews, gets a free ticket to Heaven. They habitually put innocent people in harm's way.

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/unu...oolschildrenqassamskassamsrockets48011509.htm

There is no such thing as a Hamas that can be reasoned with. Do you think that Hamas would do this?

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/04/26/israel-saves-the-life-of-a-top-hamas-official%E2%80%99s-daughter-but-arab-and-western-media-wont-report-it/

Give their enemy's daughter priority at one of THEIR hospitals?

I am not impressed with Hamas.

 

a question for all who say the palestinians shouldn't be allowed to return to their stolen property in palestine.


do refugees have the right to choose to return to their lands after the crisis or what not that drove them away has ended or resettle and take just compensation?



oh and I don't want any excuses, justifications, rationalizations, and/or moral relativistic answers just a straight up yes or no