Israel invades Plaestine, again under high-kill ratio policy

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Billy T, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,058
    right they give such lip service to it the keys to the homes they were forced from are treasured family heirlooms passed down in hopes of one day being allowed their legal right to return.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,058
    wouldn't work. their just isn't enough time to get a proper bead on such targets.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,058
    :facepalm:: that is a gross mischarcterization of power levels but surprisingly very common among people who support Israel and it crimes. oh poor Israel with its super modern military going up against anitquated soviet tech. Israel is the big dog surrounded by a bunch of small dogs not the other way around.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    Are you sure?

    There are least 4 companies that have been producing naval based models since the 1970's and 2 companies producing land based models, one of which has been producing since 2007 and has been well tested defending US bases in Iraq against mortars. The Israeli towns within mortar/artillery range of gaza (under 10 km) could stand to benefit from C-RAM defense system.
     
  8. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,562
    A gross misrepresentation of power levels in what way?
    I said Israel was a little guy surrounded buy big guys, but had the one advantage of carrying a bigger gun.
    Now go ahead and explain how that is incorrect.

    I always think of Alien (the original movie) when someone does the facepalm thing.
    ...Nevermind.

    Explain it. Just for me. Watch that knee jerk reaction, though.
     
  9. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,058
    its exactly as I said
     
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    You obviously don´t understand how CIWS works. It does not "draw a bead on the target." It very rapidly shoots a stream of many bullets intitally aimed approximately at the target and its radar tracks them going out as well a the target and the aimming control system converges the two. It is a "fire until target kill" system* with better than than 90% success rate as I recall.

    BTW a few have been mounted on flat bed trucks and used in Iraq to explode even incoming mortar shells which have less time of flight than the Gaza rockets. - One of my old posts has the link.

    * hit target is "instantly" known by its abrupt doppler shift to the radar.

    Later by edit: I see Electric Fetus in post 24 has one of my old links. (I was working forward from my last post and replied to you before reading post 24.)
     
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    But it should be noted that it can't knock out things that are beyond its maximum altitude or beyond a unspecific supersonic speed, Hence why "Iron dome" is needed, "Davids sling" and "Arrow", its just below Iron dome C-RAM systems could be used for very short range defense.
     
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,058
    you still got to know where it is. against a rocket or an artillery shell that has a decent flight time yes but against a mortar operated by infentry its going to be hard pressed to kill it because the time to recognize the launch localize the launch site and figure out where the projectile is roughly and than keep firing into the space it is so short. at such short ranges time is the critical factor in kills.
     
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    Again we now have years of operational data the shows that C-RAM systems can and do knock down mortars rounds.
    http://defense-update.com/newscast/0508/news/news2105_c_ram.htm

    http://defensetech.org/2007/12/21/could-israel-deploy-c-ram-for-border/
    “The C-RAM is deployed at US FOBs (Forward Operating Bases) all over Iraq — not just in the so-called Green Zone. C-RAMs success rate in shooting mortar rounds and other incoming indirect ordnance out of the sky is better than 85% according to data I’ve received from those who’ve installed these systems in Iraq. C-RAM counter-fires which miss the incoming target do not simply fall to ground — each 20mm round is fused to self-destruct if contact is not made with the target.

    The IDF Research & Development Directorate’s (MAFAT) refusal to acquire and deploy the C-RAM system in defense of Sderot or other Israeli towns is several echelons below unfortunate, and appears to be couched in political considerations which have nothing to do with the suffering of the citizens of Sderot. The non-acquisition is sending a message of abandonment to the women and children of Sderot who are under severe traumatic stress and psychological pressures not unlike that of soldiers in combat.“
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    Don´t blame MAFAT. They serve as told.

    I have noted long ago the real reason why Israel lets the Gaza rockets do damage and kill an Israeli or two every few years. A few Israeli deaths are needed to justify Israel following a high kill ratio policy (at least 25 to 1) with the false belief that will keep them secure,* instead of a multi-layer defense (including land mines and killer dog zone , etc. as I have described in detail in many posts more than 6 years ago) as well as rocket (and ICBM) interceptors.

    *It will, until in a decade or so the infiltrators and rockets to use much more lethal biological weapons (air born infection fatal agents like ebola, etc.) than HE. There will be many marters hoping for the chance to die when disperinging them from high buildings in Tela Vive or loading them instead of HE in the then longer range rockets.

    P.S. I should note that I still call all these modern improved Close In Weapon Systems, CIWS, and think minor mods (mainly a slower rate of fire) would permit the earlier generation that have been removed from Israeli ships to shoot down Gaza rockets at 1% of the kill cost of $90,000 Iron Dome interceptor missiles.

    Why not take some out of storage in Israeli warehouses and see if I am right. The older version was prone to jamming - why the high fire rate (which was needed for super-sonic, sea-skimming, cruse missile, threats to ships) needs to be reduced, if early generations units are taken from storage. They can then be used againt rockets that just slowly falls from the peak of the trajectory. (Fuel burn out having occurred many seconds earlier). In the early days, some sailors said CIWS stood for:
    "Captain, It Won´t Shoot."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2012
  15. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,965
    Proximity fuses, eh? That sounds really interesting to be honest, and the basic technology has been around for 70 years. But even if planes flown in WW2 were faster than Katyusha and Qassam rockets, one should take note that it typically took several shots to successfully hit targets and down them, and there was a far greater time window in which to intercept bomber planes as compared to rockets launched near the border. I hope someone looks into it though and checks whether a modern computer aimed, rapid fire artillery gun battery could be up to the task. It would practically bankrupt foreign assailants trying to pound Israel from afar, if it worked.

    My favourite defense technology is the Skyguard laser defense battery, based on the joint US-Israeli THEL project. Here's an official demo video from 2006, released shortly after the last Lebanon-Israeli war concluded. Last I heard, in official government tests it shot down every single mortar, shell and rocket that came within a few miles, and was able to do so even when multiple attacks were launched simultaneously. The excuse for not using it relates to the high cost of building and deploying a unit, but supposedly it only costs $1000 for each interception once deployed, far less than the cost of a Katyusha. Unlike the Iron Dome system, the cost of Skyguard's "ammo" is not a limiting factor in the number of interceptions that could actually be conducted, and if you couple it with Iron Dome's ability to ignore projectiles headed towards unpopulated areas, this seems like it could be a real gamechanger. Any idea why it's not even on the radar screen anymore? Laser technology is only getting better and yet it seems neither the US nor Israel will show any interest towards it for many years to come.
     
  16. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    Very interesting and chemical lasers as killers of satelites been tested - I was slightly connected to those tests 30+ years ago. They must be fire from a high altitude plane because of "blooming" and I suspect this will limit Skyguard´s range if system is ground based. Also the chemicals used 30 years ago are (or the products) quite toxic.

    The air is not 100% transparent. When you put a lot of radiation energy thru it for farther than CIWS can shoot the air in the beam path warmes and expands - this reduces the refracitive index so you are shooting thru a negative lense which spreads the beam lowering the intensity on target. You will note the laser beam of skyguard comes out of a large circular window. It is going backwards thru optics much like a telescope to lower the intensity /cm^2 (by more than a factor of 100 I would guess). This decreases the Blooming and actually results in higher intensity on target than just shooting at target without sending beam backwards thru a telescope.

    I know some of the physics, but nothing specific about skyguard. - They may have designed it for a ground based range not much greater than CIWS, which is much cheaper per kill - But here may be why it has not been placed into service:

    Quite probably, it was designd for instalation in high altitude plane where blooming problem is greatly reduced and just shot down a few short range ground threats, as a PR demonstration, instead of killing long range threats from even higher altitude than the threat which are many Km away from the laser unit. - that would be my guess as to why it was built.
     
  17. Mr.Spock Back from the dead Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,938
    FUCK YOU. Go piss on someone else
     

Share This Page