- The charge was not "for teaching other to turn the othor cheek". It was for "preaching conversion to kids under the age of consent" without approval from the parents. The same charge could be given to any preachers tried to convert to any religion for kids under age, even muslim preachers if the try to convert non-muslim kids to muslim. - Indonesia is not "Islamic State", nor "Moderate Islamic State". It is more secular though, despite it says in the 1st of its 5 principles "Believe in 1 God". It allows (actually, obligates the people to embrace one of) 5 religions (Islam, Christian, Catholics, Hindu, Buddha). The media (deliberately, might be) forgetted to put 'the age of consent" and 'without approval from the parents". The parents first gave permission to the kids, because the school was giving meals and gifts to children. After sometimes, it was found the school was preaching, the kids started to change. That triggered protests. In such a climate where preaching is sensitive issue, the state decided to prohibit preaching to kids. Those preacher crossed the fence, put themselves in such vulnerable area by proselytizing. You are referring the livinghood in the prison. What prison is not alike? Side note: Will you please put the link of the poll that says 90% of moderate Indonesian muslim want to legalize the barring of muslim conversion? I missed that one.
I agree that Thomas Jefferson was wrong in owning slaves. At the very least he should have set an example by noｔ owning slaves at best he should had condemmed it. His owning slaves was wicked, his condoning slavery unenlightened and pathetic. See SAM when you don’t worship someone as a Prophet you then can recognize them as an imperfect human with all the good and bad points of being a human. I admire much about Thomas Jefferson, I find his owning Slaves sickening. In regards to slavery Jefferson was an unenlightened fool. How about Mohammad SAM? What do you think about his owning Slaves? Oh that’s right, I forgot, your programming restricts critical thought in regards to Mohammad. mii I went to the beach yesterday and saw the most ridiculous act. Ａ Muslim girl was trying to swim wearing a burqua. She almost drowned. Finally she gave up an sat like a docile sad little kid next to her father who was staring bug-eyed at a topless chicks tits. Ａｌｌ Ｉ ｃｏｕｌｄ ｔｈｉｎｋ ｗａｓ ｗｏｗ ｗｈａｔ ａｎ ｅｎｌｉｇｈｔｅｎｅｄ ｐｅｏｐｌｅ．．．
The link was in another post I made a few months ago, I`ll look for it later. 3 years in PRISON? What are your thoughts on that? Has a single Muslim ever been convicted of converting a Xian to Islam? (Maybe given a medal instead?)
It's better than the maximum of 5 years as stipulated in the regulation for "Preaching to kinds under age". I think it's better to regulate than not, considering the existing climate of the community. The state should take action to prevent more riots uncontrolled. Please specify the issue here... " ... was the xian preached to, was under age"?
...you don't see such laws as innately wrong? What if it had been the reverse? I suggest the tafsir for Sura 9 (thanks again Sam) to see what the political stance of the religion is on preaching to children of other faiths. The state of total hatred, it would seem.
You may say anything. That's the state matters. They have their own laws. I am stressing this is about stipulating law in a state. But you guys pointing this is about Islam.
So, other than 3 years is better than 5 years, your personal opinion is that it is better to sent people to prison than not to? Also, if a Muslim were to convince an underage Christian to change their religion (and lets suppose the parents didn't care one way or the other because they were not very religous) you still think that the Muslim should go to prison for 3 years for converting a Christian to Islam? The Law is the Law right? better to regulate than not, considering the existing climate of the community.
Can't you read 'kids'? Keep continuing to change 'kids' with "muslim" , "christians', or any religions.
3 years is better than 5 years. My personal opinion is not what you stated, I never said that. It doesn't matter what I think. The trial process will say. The parents (or whoever could be representing the kids) could use the same charge. Are you going to say the law is discriminative? better to regulate than not, considering the existing climate of the community.[/QUOTE] Let me tell you the facts. In Indonesia, I lived there, I never knew any muslim preaching to non-muslim kids, the same way I never knew any Hindu or Buddha did; Here: Muslim teach Muslims about Islam in their own madrasa. Hindus teach their own community about Hinduism. Buddhist teach their followers about Buddhism. Christian preach to everybody, kids and adults. I know some people here in Sciforums get annoyed by evangelist knocking on their doors. Why is it strange when muslim parents get annoyed seeing their kids proselytised?
"Annoyed" meaning "lock them in jail for five years"? That seems a strange definition of "annoyed". I very, very much doubt any muslim would be prosecuted for prosetylizing to Christian or any other kind of kids. That kind of punishment is a one-way street, frankly.
You are the one who did that simplistic translation. You should come to the lawmaker seat to see the real problems. Had not them made the law, things would be out of control, could be worse. You may doubt it at the very highest, and I guess yes, you won't find it. No muslim intentionally preach to other kids. But if there were any, the law is there to prosecute the muslim. Someone just need to register the case to the police. With enough evidence, the case is there.
No. You defended the whole process by saying that: So to solve the "annoyance", you seem to feel that a jail term is acceptable. (I'd be very interested to see how the Indonesian legal system defines "prosetylization", also.) Now how is this? Gangs of Christian ministers would be running around, terrifying people with hymns and pamphlets? Ha! Laughable. My guess is that it would take a mountain of evidence higher than the one Mohammed trod upon to make that case. However, if you have any evidence of a muslim being prosecuted using this law for preaching to Christian children, please do post it.
You are very good at twisting words. All your words are speculation, but you really are convincing yourself. Christian preachers preach to muslim kids, muslims dont like it. To avoid muslims act directly to those preachers, the state makes the law, a precaution. Are you expecting those muslims do something uncontrolled and the state does nothing to prevent? You dont want things happened the way Korean preachers experienced in Afghanistan. Now get laugh, and post the case where an Indonesian muslim preach to other kids.
You know, this omes up a fair bit whenever I slam political religion. Show me how I "twisted your words". Or tell me what you meant by seemingly defending prison sentences for prosetylization on the basis of "annoyed" parents. And illustrate to me where any muslim in Indonesia - or in any other islamic country in the world - has been charged for preaching to non-muslims. The smell of it is that you don't like the thought of people preaching something other than islam, and I'm willing to be it's an accurate impression. So your society is protecting the Christians from themselves? How about instead, the state concentrates on educating such people so that they don't go out and attack others? There are a variety of ways in which islam is creeping in on minority religious communities in Indonesia. In short, it answers your request with "why would they need to bother?", besides suggesting a certain coercive declension on the part of Indonesian society. I'm attaching a small essay to this post: This is the 'protection' of the social system of Indonesia, I take it. I believe that answers your direct question. There is hardly any need to preach, when one may simply forcibly convert the population altogether. If this happens in the outlying districts, I wonder what it's like in the cities? I don't agree with everything he says, of course, but there's little doubt he's got Indonesia's number.
