Islam and the Question of Violence*

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Solve et Coagula, Jan 25, 2006.

  1. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    2,130
    They were born in mortal combat. Christianity was conceived under Roman occupation of Israel and spread to Rome and its other colonies through dispersed Mesopotamian natives. Islam was conceived under the real possibility of total eradication of Arabic people, unless they could somehow be unified. You got to to admit, it worked. It still does. Of course, Islamic factions did have their differences - and still do - the same as Christian sects did - and still do.The Hebrews developed their religion in the same combative style for the same kind of reason: surrounded by expansive empires and other land-hungry small nations, a jealous, irritable god was pretty much a requirement for survival. They believe it still is.
    Obviously, if similar religions are practiced by peoples who covet the same real estate, those beliefs are going to be used as a pretext for all-out war. It makes a far more compelling cause than the kind of gentlemen's quarrel the British and French carried on for a few centuries.
    All kinds of Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs managed to slaughter one another without recourse to a holy book - that doesn't make their religions any more valid.
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Religious conflict played a significant role, as did the ungentlemanly repercussions of that.
    The moderating influences were mostly secular - marriages among the extended aristocracies involved, money borrowed and loaned, matters of trade and travel.
     
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  5. Stephen H Banned Banned

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    55
    I am not a "bible thumper". I am not even religious. I am pretty well read on the Christian religion and have read the Quran, the Hadith and the biography of the so called prophet Muhammad who didn't actually prophesy anything.

    Yes a parable spoken by The christ. What's your point?


    Yes a saying about dividing and separating the people of Christ from the men of the world. He, the Christ being the "sword". What's your point?

    Yes words written by John in Revelation. What's your point?

    Yes. An ancient scripture written for the Hebrew /Israelite audience. What's your point? The New Testament on the other hand is what devout CHRISTIANS follow. They follow the teaching of The Christ, the clue is in the word C_H_R_I_S_T_I_A_N. This Christ teaches love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek, give away you clothes and help the poor etc etc. What he doesn't teach enslavement, robbery, rape maiming and murdering as does the Quran

    You must has misunderstood what I wrote. Here it is again, I have emboldened the relevant parts>

    "You will be hard pressed to find a single passage in the New Testament, where the The Christ instructs his followers to go out into the world and murder anyone who does not believe in him as does the God OF THE Quran.

     
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  7. Stephen H Banned Banned

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    Indeed, but I haven't read recently of Israelis or Christians stoning any homosexuals. Islam on the other had still has, and carries out, the death penalty for homsexuality. Recently it has been reported by some sources that;
    "Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds". And although many muslims feel a "connection to Britain" they still want Sharia law. So, who knows where that will lead.
    The "normal" muslims in this video all seem to agree on the death penalty for homsexuality. They agree it would be putting the homosexual "out of his misery" and it to be " the best punishment".
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    35,610
    First, Christ rubberstamps the Old Testament (Matthew 5.17-18↱); cheap word games don't work.

    Excluding the Hebrew Scriptures from the Christian experience is the sort of thing that generally distresses Christians; they have some pretty impressive fights among themselves about that sort of stuff. Billvon↑ makes the point about some of the stuff you can find in the Old Testament, and that doesn't even count the one time we know God to have repented, deposing a king for failing to complete a genocide (1 Samuel 15.11↱).

    Also, it would be kind of funny watching someone who botches ahadith and considers President Erdoğan some manner of Islamic authority, and who considers himself "pretty well read on the Christian religion", pitching word games—(that didn't work even back when this thread was new)—for the sake of sloth, except it's actually kind of sad.
     
  9. Stephen H Banned Banned

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    55
    Stated a fact is all. And it is only your opinion that what I have stated are "words games". I can only say, if you don't like "word games", don't take part.

    Is the so called prophet Muhammad an " Islamic authority"?

    Yes a very ancient scripture written for the Hebrew /Israelite audience of the time, (doubtful if any of them could even read) and not really adhered to by Israelis or Christians in the 21st century. Christians haven't stoned anyone for adultery in my life time or the life time of my parents and neither have they stoned anyone for homosexuality.

    But Islam on the other hand>
    "Iran executes three men on homosexuality charges"
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/07/iran-executes-men-homosexuality-charges
    Stop killing gays Iran




    And none of this actually addresses why many Islam still has the death penalty for homsexuals and that many muslims believe homosexuality should be outlawed .
    Could you provide us with a link showing one example of Israelites OR Christians killing people because of their sexual orientation?
    You are not obligated to respond, reply or show any evidence to the contrary.



     
  10. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    1,040
    You’d have to be living under a rock to make such a statement. Are you going to argue that these deaths were at the hands of Muslims as well?

    History of violence against LGBT people in the United States
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States


    Many Christians today biblically validate their bigotry.

    Republican Candidates Attend Rally Where Pastor Advocates "Death Penalty" for Gay People
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/republican-candidates-attend-rally-where-014821801.html?ref=gs
     
  11. Stephen H Banned Banned

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    55
    , No. but you may have been.

    They may well do. But it is a "hate crime " to do so and is punishable under the law. They are NOT crimes under ISLAMIC LAW. You have been "under a rock".


    He may well "advocate the death penalty" , but murder is punishable under the law. They are NOT crimes under ISLAMIC LAW. You have been "under a rock".


    . These are attacks on the individual " LGB OR T and are punishable under the law. They are classed as CRIMES because they are crimes. They are NOT crimes under ISLAMIC LAW. You have been "under a rock"!? talking of rocks;


    Homosexuality: Islamic Law "Stone to Death"



     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  12. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    1,040
    Yes, it’s a crime in most civilized countries to kill homosexuals, but many Christians still feel biblically justified in doing so. If our country had been founded as a Christian theocracy, practicing homosexuality may have been a capital offense here as well. If you want to condemn the actions of irrational theocracies, be my guest, but don’t do so by excusing the actions of other religious groups.
    I fortunately don’t live under Islamic law, but there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are not subject to these extreme interpretations of the law either. Do you believe it’s right to advocate death for homosexuals?
     
  13. Stephen H Banned Banned

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    And the difference is, in many Islamic countries homosexuality is punishable by death and others imprisonment.


    They are entitled to "feel" what they will, but carrying out the act of murder for being honsexual, is another thing altogether.

    MAY have been at one time but it wasn't and still isn't. it is still a crime in Islam.

    Thank you.


    I haven't excused any other religious groups. I WILL condemn the ACTIONS of ANY religious group that still holds homsexuality to be a capital offence as in some Islamic countries.

    Islam orders the death of Homsexuality:, FACT! This is not mean to say ALL muslims advocate it or carry out the instructions of Islamic law. The point is , it IS ISLAMIC LAW! What are you missing about that very clear point?


    No I don't. But Islam does. And Islamic countries such as Iran still carry out the death penalty for homsexuality.

    I cannot see what point you are making and what you are arguing about. Islam is wrong in ORDERING death for homosexuals. What are you missing!

    Islamic leaders on homosexuality
    "The law on homesexuality are non negotiable. The practice is abhorrent"

     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  14. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    1,040
    You stated that Christians hadn’t killed anyone in your and your parents lifetime, and I took issue with that assertion because many homosexuals have died at the hands of Christians here in the US and around the world during that time period.
    I understand that various religions endorse numerous irrational viewpoints, and punishment of homosexuality is among them, and I condemn any individual or group for advocating or carrying out such action.
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    35,610
    Mod Hat — Fine, if this is the way you want to do it

    Sometimes it's my job to attend the word games, and if the point is that I should not play along, I will remind you the actual point is that you have some obligation toward honesty, and no, you don't get special accommodation for psychiatric, cognitive, or developmental accommodation unless you declare that need.

    Meanwhile, people aren't obliged to just sit around and watch your agit-prop roll. If there is a purpose to the videos, write the argument. If you can't do that, if the point is for people to just sit around and watch your selected propaganda, then you need to stop preaching.
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    14,528
    Bible doesn't say "stoned" it says "put to death." Again, don't thump the Bible if you don't even know what's in it.

    But in terms of killing (or almost killing) -

    2018 - Blaze Bernstein, a gay Jewish college student, was killed by Samuel Woodward, a homophobic neo-Nazi.
    2015 - Joshua Brandon Vallum found guilty of killing Mercedes Williamson, a trans woman.
    2013 - Matthew Fenner was beaten and choked for hours by church members to "drive out the demon." Fortunately he was taken to a hospital; he survived (barely.)
    2005 - Ronnie Paris, a 3 year old boy, was killed by his father because the father was concerned that he might be gay.

    When you thump on the Bible to "prove" how bad Muslims are, then you're a bible thumper - by definition. That's what bible thumpers do; use the Bible to justify whatever agenda they embark on.
    That Christ commanded his followers to slay people - just as you claim the Koran does.
    That Christ commanded violence rather than peace - just as you claim the Koran does.
    That the New Testament calls for death for the faithless - just as you claim the Koran does.
    That the Bible calls for death for a great many offenses, many of which involve not being the right faith - just as you claim the Koran does.
    Sounds like you have never even been to a Christian mass. Go to one sometime; you may learn a lot about what Christians follow.

    Again, it's like a law of nature - the most ardent attackers of Islam don't even understand the religions they claim are better.
    Luke 19:27 - Christ instructs his followers to find his "enemies" (those who do not want to be ruled by him) and slay them.
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    35,610
    Deliberately misleading argumentation; the actual answer is that Mt. 5.17-18 brings the whole of the Law, including the parts about who to kill, what to cut off, and when to poison your wife, to the Christian Scriptures. There is, of course, plenty to argue within that framework, but maybe that's too subtle a discourse for you to comprehend.

    Think very carefully about what you think you're doing and what you're about to do. You've already been called out on misrepresenting Qur'an and ahadith, and your retort on this occasion is, technically, non sequitur.

    Are you, then, ranging into argumentative hypocrisy, or simply not thinking through the implications of your gasp and grab straw job? The thing is, there are plenty of discussions to be engaged, but you just can't seem to find any; part of the problem might be your priorities. Actually learning and having a clue is not inherently part of being a bigot, and, indeed, most days seems rather quite antithetical. And it's not so much that you're welcome to prove that point all you want; people already get the gist of it, and this is the sort of thing they weary of.

    No, really, for one who considers himself "pretty well read on the Christian religion", you're rather quite not. To the other, a multistate effort to organize votes to legalize the murder of homosexuals setting off a high-profile political and legal dispute that runs a quarter-century before losing outright, is the kind of subtlety that escapes many.

    It's like a weird moment after the Pulse massacre in Orlando; a preacher in California went off about rounding up all the gays for a firing squad to blow their brains out, and while everyone was gasping horror and stepping up to the line to stand with their queer neighbors, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX), a known homoophobic bigot, turns up trying to convince the LGBTQ+ community that he is and always has been their friend, and thus they should hop on his anti-Islamic bandwagon, and now more than ever. We might wonder: Is Ted Cruz really that stupid, or does he think homosexuals are? (For the record, the most reliable answer is to remind that the conditions are not mutually exclusive.) Steve Benen↱ went ahead and formulated the stupidity:

    What Cruz doesn't seem to appreciate is the fact that the LGBT community and its allies already know that radicalized loons hate gay people—just as we know Ted Cruz pals around with Christian extremists who believe Scripture demands the death penalty for homosexuality.

    The enemy of an enemy is not necessarily a friend: When the guy who kowtows to the murderlusting homophobic Christian tells gay people they're on his side, homosexuals know better. The thing is, it's not just homophobia; that a bigot might show bigotry against another who is bigoted against yet someone else does not make the one bigot a friend of that someone else.

    Empowering bigotry is empowering bigotry; that one is not the target of whatever hatred happens to be fouling the room in the moment does not change this point. When the anti-Muslim bigot appeals to homosexuals for support, many of those homosexuals will notice the fact of bigotry. If homosexuals support your manner of anti-Islamic bigotry, they empower anti-gay bigotry such as we've seen from the Texas junior and his murderlusting Christianist associates.

    And we can believe that's all too subtle for someone as well read as you pretend to be, if you really need so low a bar, or we might wonder how stupid you think your audience is.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Benen, Steve. "Cruz sees Orlando massacre as possible wedge issue". msnbc. 13 June 2016. msnbc.com. 30 June 2016. http://on.msnbc.com/25T6qFt
     
  18. Stephen H Banned Banned

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    55
    The "argument" to the videoes? The point of the videos are to prove a point. You can disagree with the muslims in the videos and tell us all why you disagree. I have posted videos that support what it is I am conveying. Example; Islam says the penalty for homesexuals is death, this video should prove my point. Example:

    Muslims telling the world that killing homosexuals is ISLAM


    You are welcome to contradict the opinions and statements in this video, but there are other Islamic sources that back them up. Example :
    "Iran executes three men on homosexuality charges"
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/07/iran-executes-men-homosexuality-charges

    You may not welcome these facts, but facts they are.
     
  19. Stephen H Banned Banned

    Messages:
    55

    The Old Testament does indeed speak of the death penalty for homosexuals. What's your point?
    AND Christian extremist may still wish that to be the case, BUT IT ISN'T! So what's your point? There is a penalty for the murder anyone of any sexual persuasion in the civilised world. Where as Islam on the other hand, STILL demands death for "sin" of homosexuality .

    Now, I am hardly going to argue with or about an islamic source video that supports my statement , such as this>>
    "Homosexuality is a great corruption,Anyone caught committing sodomy, kill the sodomizer and the sodomized".



     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,610
    Learn to follow the discussion.

    Reminder↗: Christ rubberstamps the Old Testament (Matthew 5.17-18↱).

    You were too busy playing↑ self-defeating word games—

    Stated a fact is all. And it is only your opinion that what I have stated are "words games". I can only say, if you don't like "word games", don't take part.

    —and missed the point, so that, even having it spelled out for you↑ in the first sentence of response↑, you might ignore that point—

    ... the actual answer is that Mt. 5.17-18 brings the whole of the Law, including the parts about who to kill, what to cut off, and when to poison your wife, to the Christian Scriptures.

    —in order to ask, "The Old Testament does indeed speak of the death penalty for homosexuals. What's your point?"

    Well, let's try it again:

    Stephen H: Christians do have a violent past, but you will be hard pressed to find a single passage in the New Testament, where the The Christ instructs his followers to go out into the world and murder anyone who does not believe in him or Islam as does the god Quran. (#16↑)

    Tiassa: ... Christ rubberstamps the Old Testament (Matthew 5.17-18) .... (#25↑)

    S: Stated a fact is all. (#28↑)

    T: Deliberately misleading argumentation; the actual answer is that Mt. 5.17-18 brings the whole of the Law, including the parts about who to kill, what to cut off, and when to poison your wife, to the Christian Scriptures. (#34↑)

    S: The Old Testament does indeed speak of the death penalty for homosexuals. What's your point? (#36↑)

    Learn to follow the discussion. Stop preaching. If you have an argument, try writing it instead of this clumsy idiot stalling routine as a platform for evangelizing your bigotry.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    14,528
    THE point (not his point) is that when the Koran speaks of death penalties, it's "the god of THE QURAN instructs his followers to go out into the world and MURDER people!" But when the Bible is shown to do just that, you make excuses for it.

    Wow. He could be a Christian white supremacist with an attitude like that!
     
  22. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    53,205
    I agree with the posters here who said it's hypocritical to criticise Islam and not Christianity for practically the same thing. The essential problem is religious culture that values faith over emerging understandings of human rights.
     
  23. Stephen H Banned Banned

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    55
    No I am not making excuses. It is muslims who are finding reasons to Murder homosexuals, Homosexuality is a "sin in islam. . Much of the civilised world condemns murder of homsexuals. Murder of homsexuals in the civilised world IS PUNISHABLE under the law in the civilised world. How am I making excuses.

    He could but he is not. And neither am I. Look again, he doesn't look like a Christian to me>>
    "Homosexuality is a great corruption,Anyone caught committing sodomy, kill the sodomizer and the sodomized".

     

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